Wed, 5 Dec 2007 21:44:29 -0800
(PST)
From: michael vitti <sick4surf@yahoo.com>
To: Josh Moore <mtbikes@gmail.com>, patty@ecocyclist.org
Cc: romp@ns.live555.com, michael vitti <sick4surf@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ROMP] MTBs & Self Monitoring
Well, when a land manager demands that MTBers need to
self monitor...I usually ask them if I can have a
badge and a six shooter, then I ask for help in
rassling up a posse!
It's not the wild west any longer.
My point is...leave the enforcement activities to the
police. It's irresponsible and downright foolish for
an ordinary citizen to try and enforce rules and
regulations. You can get punched or worse!
It also exposes the land manager to huge risks of
liability if someone gets hurt while trying to enforce
"their" rules.
Also ponder this...it's the land manager's lack of
planning to accomodate a growing mountain bike
population that has caused the loss of natural
resources via rogue trail building. If they allow
mountain bikers to help design exciting trails for all
ability levels...there would be less need for rogue
trails to be built. [Right. And lack of free money "causes" bank
robberies. Mike]
If you build it they will come...if you don't build it
they will come and build it anyway.
The majority on MTBers realize access is a priveledge
and will develop a community of caretakers for the
forest...if given the chance.
Sometimes MTBers are in the same boat as
politicians...the actions of a few bad apples ruin the
reputation for all MTBers.
Ride safe and happy trails,
Mike
Wed, 5 Dec 2007:
From: "Peter Donohue"
<pdonohue@singlespeed.org>
To: "ROMP Email List" <romp@ns.live555.com>
Subject: Re: [ROMP] MTBs & Self Monitoring
Paul Wrote:
>This leads to the next point, about trail standards. Both the SCCP and
>MROSD subscribe to conservative trail standards, which are pretty much
>equivalent to class 1 State standards. This yields great speedy
>cross-country
>trails, but nothing beyond that. I've said it before, and I'll say it
>again: Any
>public land management agency that does not provide technical trail riding
>experiences for the burgeoning technical trail riding communitiy is
>negligent
>because they should understand that where technical riding experiences are
>forbidden, the conditions for illegal trail construction and cross-country
>riding
>are laid, and compromise to resources will follow as a direct result of
>their
>mis-informed policies, and contradict their mission.
A second area I feel they are negligent in is that they are inviting trail
conflict by using the trail standard they use. Asking a cyclist to ride
slow on one of these "speedy" trails is like asking a driver to drive
40mph
on 280. Instead, they should be putting speed bumps in to slow us
down. Ad
these speed bumps show up in the form of technical trail features (logs,
rocks, bumps, twists in the trails, etc.), which is what many of us like to
see in our rides.
Leaf Trail in ECdM is ridden slowly, as it is technical. At the other
extreme, the fire roads in Fremont Older and the Canyon Trail in Montibello
are speeding ticket factories. The standard 4' wide smooth singletrack is
about smack between these (IMHO), with examples being the singletrack found
in Montibello or Russian Ridge.
This doesn't directly impact the conversation in question (trail access in
La Honda) in the short term, but a speedy trail network causes more conflict
complaints over time which will in general make it harder for land managers
to justify opening trails. Yet if they had developed the trails with
managing bicycle speed as one of the components, they might not be in this
situation.
Peter
Thu, 25 Oct 2007:
To: "'ROMP'" <romp@ns.live555.com>
From: PaulW@enet.com
Subject: [ROMP] Fw: How to talk to a non-cyclist
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.live555.com/mailman/listinfo/romp>,
<mailto:romp-request@lists.live555.com?subject=subscribe>
How to talk to Non-Cyclists
by Elden Nelson
The fact that you are reading this tells me all I really need to know
about you. You're a cyclist. I'm a cyclist. We therefore both know
what's really important in life (riding). We see the world as it truly
is (a place to ride our bikes). If we were each to answer the question,
"What would you do with a million dollars?" our answers would vary
perhaps in what equipment we'd buy and where we'd go to ride, but in
little else.
If we were to have a conversation, we'd have an understanding of how
each other thinks. Maybe you're a Cat 2 roadie and maybe I'm a
cross-country endurance geek, but we both know that turning the cranks
in a perfect circle is the ultimate form of self-expression.
Sadly, not everyone is like you and I. I am sad to say that there are
people out there who rarely - if ever! - ride bikes at all. It's
possible you even know someone like this. A coworker. A family member.
You'd be surprised at how common non-cyclists are, actually. You
probably encounter them several times per day and simply don't notice
them, because they aren't interesting.
Mostly, you can safely ignore these people, simply by riding away from
them. Sometimes, though - at a company party, say - it is impossible to
avoid non-cyclists. Surrounded, you have no choice but to communicate
with them.
Don't worry. I'm here to help. Just follow these five simple rules.
Rule 1: Understand their bizarre world view
You need to understand that non-cyclists don't realize that cycling is
the most important thing any person can be doing at any given moment at
any point in the universe. Non-cyclists' eyes - and minds - are
shuttered, leaving them to believe that things like friends, community,
work, and even family supercede what they naively call "just exercise."
It's sad - OK, it's pathetic - but it's true.
To appease non-cyclists, when asked about what matters to you, you must
from time to time mention friends, family, the environment, or some
other such nonsense. Otherwise, they'll never leave you alone and it
will be hours until you can get away, back to the comfort and kinship
you feel when with your bicycle.
Rule 2. Use metaphors from "real life"
Non-cyclists aren't ready to hear about your exquisite existence in its
unadulterated perfection. No, you will need to translate the sublime
cycling experience into terms they might be able to understand.
Naturally, you and I know that the following metaphors don't do the
actual cycling event justice, but they'll have to do.
To describe how it feels to ride down perfectly banked, twisty forested
singletrack on a cool autumn morning: "It's like that scene from Return
of the Jedi where Luke and Leia are zooming on their flying motorcycle
things. Except you're the one powering the flying motorcycle. And you're
not being chased by stormtroopers. And you don't have to tolerate the
constant chattering of Ewoks."
To explain why you gladly get up at 4:30am each weekday morning to ride
your road bike for three hours on an entirely unremarkable road: "You
know how you have to drive your car in stop-and-go traffic to get to
work every morning? Well, imagine if you didn't have to stop. And
imagine your car going as fast as you can make it go. And imagine
starting the day feeling perfect. It's kind of like that."
To explain why you pay $200 to participate in a race you have very
little chance in winning: "Ever play the lotto? It's like that, except
much, much more so."
Rule 3: Pretend to be interested in their life
This one's going to knock you off your feet. Believe it or not,
non-cyclists sometimes think they have something interesting to say,
have an interesting hobby, or an interesting experience to relate.
This, of course, is utter nonsense.
Still, for the sake of propriety, you must act as if you care. Feel
free, as they talk, to pleasantly daydream about biking. Just smile and
say, "Absolutely," from time to time.
Warning: It's entirely possible that a non-cyclist will say something
with which you disagree. When this happens, do not engage. If you do,
you will have unwittingly stepped into a non-cycling conversation, and
who knows where that will lead, or when it will end.
Always remember: Be polite, be brief, be gone.
Rule 4. Act like their theory on doping in cycling is very interesting
A tactic non-cyclists will often employ, once they have discovered you
are a cyclist, is to try to talk with you about cycling. This usually
takes the form of trying to talk with you about doping in cycling.
You will, no doubt, be tempted to gouge your ears out rather than hear
their simplistic, uninformed opinion ("Doping is bad") to its
rambling,
incoherent conclusion. After all, as a cyclist, you have no doubt been
pummelled with story after story after story about doping. You have
heard so much about doping that you could now be called as an expert
witness at the next doping trial. Or open a lab. Or be the next
president of WADA (and you're rightly confident you'd do a much better
job).
But if you point any of this out to your non-cyclist "friend," he
will
no doubt take that as a sign that you are interested in continuing the
conversation. So, instead, repeat this simple phrase, "Yeah, doping
sucks."
Your friend will feel like he has made his point, whatever it was.
Rule 5. Don't tell the truth about how much your bike cost
Few people ever own anything that works, fits, or looks as well as a
truly well-built bike. And yet, when they find that your bike costs as
much as their high-end computer or mid-range stereo, they will fake a
heart attack, guaranteed.
The solution? Tell non-cyclists you paid $499.99 for your bike, no
matter how much you really paid for it. This number has been
scientifically formulated to sound like more than a non-cyclist would
pay for a bike, without otherwise drawing attention to itself.
No matter how you try, you can't always avoid non-cyclists. All you can
hope to do is minimize contact with them - so you can get back to what's
important.
And I think we both know what that is.
.
<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=9368553/grpspId=1705145997/m
sgId=18697/stime=1193262377/nc1=3848644/nc2=4776367/nc3=4706130>
Wed, 17 Oct 2007:
To: satchiso@comcast.net, bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com
From: DUWorm@aol.com
List-Subscribe: <mailto:bbtcmembers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: mud = bad?
In a message dated 10/17/2007 10:48:35 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
satchiso@comcast.net writes:
So I recently bought a new bike. I picked up a 08 Specialized
Stumpjumper Expert which I totally love by the way. Lately I have heard
a lot of talk about winter bikes. A few people have mentioned picking
up a clunker for winter use so as not to ruin the new fancy bike. I
like to ride year round and I really like my new bike but don't want to
destroy it. So my question is what the heck do I do? Is it really that
bad to ride my bike in the mud? Are there things I can do to minimize
or eliminate the extra wear and tear? Should I just hang out and get
fat all winter?
Thoughts
Steve Atchison
Ride the crap out of it all winter long.
Good mud tires, a front down tube fender and a rear seat mounted fender will
help. Pedals that work in mud also help like eggbeater or time.
I ride my bikes more in the winter than in the summer. Too many other
things to do in the summer. I clean my bikes after every ride with a soft car
brush (blue fiber available at Shucks) and a hose. Never shoot water directly
in areas of bearings. make sure the bike is left to dry inside a heated
garage or better. I use DAWN dishwashing soap because it does not have any skin
moisturizers that might contaminate disk break pads.
Lube the chain the night before the next ride with T-9. Wipe off as much as
you can. Stuff is dynamite. Lube the pivot points on the derailers every
couple of rides. Use a tube or just about anything that has a long metal tub
spout, (looks like the needle on a syringe) Only one drop on each pivot and
then wife off all the extra.
Store your bike upside down the night before the ride. This helps lubricate
the upper bushing on most forks.
In the spring, if shifting is a problem of a correctly adjusted derailer,
have the cables replaced. they don't last forever.
Care about your bike and it will care about you. Bike looks great after
years of use.
Ride that bike!
Sherman Knight
Knight Mediation and The Law Offices of Sherman L. Knight
5400 Carillon Point
Kirkland WA 98033
425-576-4028 wk
425-822-9305 hm
425-576-4029 fax
duworm@aol.com email
Wed, 17 Oct 2007:
To: DUWorm@aol.com, satchiso@comcast.net, bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com
From: STOBSTAR@COMCAST.NET
Subject: Re: mud = bad?
get an old bike and make it a singlespeed.
www.soulcraftbikes.com and other
companies offer chain tensioners to aid in the process.
singlespeeds rule in the slop!
Wed, 17 Oct 2007:
To: bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com
From: KevinA <mtnwuff@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: mud = bad?
--- STOBSTAR@COMCAST.NET wrote:
> singlespeeds rule in the slop!
And here's the reason WHY they rule in the slop. Its not so much
that the mud and gunk is hard on the *bike* but it IS hard on the
components and the bearings.
A FS bike will have bearings or bushings at the pivot points in
the frame. Mud and slop is going to wrech havoc at those pivot
points. Drivetrains are going to wear down. Same thing goes for
suspension components.
A singlespeed has a straight chainline which deals w/ mud much
better than a derailleur. The derailleur system puts side loads
on the chain to achieve the different gear combinations. I'm not
saying that a singlespeed is better than a geared bike ... I'm
just saying that makes a better winter bike and is easier to
maintain.
So, save your fancy rig for the summer months and get a beater or
singlespeed for the winter.
Kevin
"A Caffeinated Hophead"
Wed, 17 Oct 2007:
To: <bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com>
From: Jimmy Livengood <jimmylivengood@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: mud = bad?
Ride it! If you want a singlespeed or other clunker, fine. But if you like your
gears and suspension, just allocate your clunker $ to spring maintenance and
enjoy the Stumpjumper year round.
Jimmy
Wed, 17 Oct 2007:
To: satchiso77 <satchiso@comcast.net>
Cc: bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com
From: "Keith Karlick" <shpoonman@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: mud = bad?
Mountain bikes are made (in the metaphoric sense) to be ridden in the slop.
As with any type of riding the more you ride and the harder conditions you
ride in the more wear your bike takes. If you rode a ton in the super dry
east side all summer you are doing damage to the linkage with sand and
everything else. The same works in the slop, all the mud will get into the
bike. Ride your nice bike in the slop!! You did not buy a nice bike to ride
a piece or crap in the rain. I remember last year riding in February near mt
rainier and a couple times during the ride I had to get off and bang some
ice off the rear derailleur. Unless you like having a super nice paper
weight, go ahead and get out there on the nice bike.
All that being said, in my mind, parts are semi disposable. They break. I
rebuild my bike every other year or so down to the wheels and have to
replace cables, housings, the normal crap. But I have been riding the same
bottom bracket, cranks, and rear derailleur for 5+ years. Keep everything
oiled/ greased and when you do work on your bike, in the winter use grease
liberally. It repels water from all the important parts. Wipe the extra oil
off the chain though, that can have a tendency to hold mud. When I am done
with a ride, I swing by a Brown Bear and hose it down. It is important to
NOT point the nozzle directly at any component with bearings or grease
fittings. Basically, if you put grease on it, don't high pressure hose it.
But for the most part it gets all the slop off and then I go home with a
clean bike. I have noticed though that my FS bike does not like to be put
away dirty.
In the end. Ride the bike you like. Especially a mountain bike. Road bikes
are a different story, keep those nice and pretty.
Wed, 17 Oct 2007:
To: bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com
From: "sk00kes" <sk00kes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: mud = bad? No mud = beautiful
Never baby a mountain bike. If i bust my XO's i'll replace it with
something cheaper, they came stock off my bike so i don't care. Plus
i've run an XTR derailluer for over 2 years on my Enduro ridden
through crummy weather and i've yet to shear it off the frame.
Destroyed derailluers are like flat tires in that sometimes you just
run into a string of bad luck and tear them off.
Here's some key info to help you with your drivetrain if you decide to
ride your bike through winter. As soon as your teeth in your cogs get
thin, replace your whole drivetrain. Cassette, chain, and granny cog
w/steel. Depending on how things go, you should be able to make it a
year (probably more). Your new steel granny cog should last you at
least a couple years. Always carry (including summer rides) chain
lube. If you're on a ride where you pick up a bunch of crud use your
water to clean it a bit, and douche that sucker up. Generally you
should only have to do that once during a really gunky ride, as the
rider usually get's tired of the goopy ride, hence making the time
less that bike has to endure these condtions. Hit Preston Petersons
Reiter Pit ride for an example of this...
As far as pivot points, these all vary on different bikes. If you
start getting play in your rear suspension, replace the bearings
before it get's too bad. On an older Enduro and many other FS frames
i had problems, not so much with this newer Enduro (not the newest
Enduro model, i have a 05 i think) as my rear linkage has no play.
Also whats more important is if you're going to clean anything on your
bike. Cleaning the sliders on the shocks is important as it will
prevent grime from reaching the internals eventually ruining the
suspension. If you ride year round be ready to have your shock and
fork internals serviced/cleaned annually.
All this can be helped with properly cleaning your bike. Run water on
super low pressure from a hose or what have you. Scrub/brush debris,
but don't blast with a high power hose at a car wash. Buy some
bicycle cleaning agents at your local bike store if you want your bike
to be immaculate after a dirty ride.
The singlespeed idea is a good idea, but you could always buy a
hardtail thrash bike with an old Zoke fork, some LX/XT shifters, and
old durable parts and ride like a maniac all the same without having
to be limited by lack of gears, for instance if you're riding
somewhere with steep inclines/elevation like Green Mountain/Reiter
Pit...
This again brings me to the question of when or if they're going to
give internal-geared hubs with belt drive a chance to really happen.
Yah yah yah i know they weigh alot....
There is always a danger of wear and tear on a bike, and i think the
danger of breaking components is only marginally increased from wet
season to dry season. Whaddya want your bike to last forever?
Most people who ride burn through a bike every couple of years anyways.
Couple more tips, when you get your frame you will have sections on
your bike that will have cable rub. Buy some clear plate sealer
(clear sticker) from a motorcycle shop and cut out circular patches.
Introduce grime into a bad area that has cable rub, and you can dig a
mini-trench into your frame.
Plus after all that is said, there are always places to ride where you
will avoid the piggy slop. Some trails are muddier than others. Some
trails mothers are muddier than other trails mothers haha.. smiths...
Good luck.
Wed, 17 Oct 2007:
From: "bob" <bmhollan@comcast.net>
To: "'sk00kes'" <sk00kes@yahoo.com>,
<bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: <satchiso@comcast.net>
Subject: RE: mud = bad? No mud = beautiful
They say bikes with VPP suspension designs are bad on pivots/bearings, but
I'm going on my third winter and have had no problems. One thing that seems
to help is Never-seize; it's way better than the stuff used in most bike
shops. Never-seize holds up against moisture better than regular grease,
that's what it was designed to do; never-seize is what ya use offshore; I've
had good luck with it.
I ride all winter long and try to keep to the trails bedded with rock and
sand; they tend to drain well. Many of the trails at Sawyer are in good
shape all winter but there are a few trails you don't want to ride; too
soft, mucky and it does too much damage.
SeaTac is a great place to ride in the winter; water drains off the trail
better than most areas. Griffin Creek is another good place to ride when it
gets wet; the rocky trails don't get too mucky.
When our local trails are washed out, Anacortes is a good place to ride;
Cranberry Lake is usually in good shape. I don't ride on trails when the mud
gets deep but it occasionally by accident. I've seen some mud pits at Tolt
that are to be avoided at all cost; very deep. I've seen and heard of people
loosing their shoes in deep mud, but it's never happened to me; knock on
wood:>)
One thing for sure is you're bike parts will hold up longer if you use
never-seize and don't use a hose to wash it down. Once I started letting the
mud dry and then wiping it off with a rag, my bike was a lot happier.
Another thing I do is put a coat of wax on after every ride; of course I use
Turtle Wax:> It helps a lot when you go to clean off the mud. My 2 cents
Wed, 17 Oct 2007:
To: <bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com>, "sk00kes"
<sk00kes@yahoo.com>
From: "ken h" <vegken@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: mud = bad? No mud = beautiful
ride, ride, ride.
winter riding is harder on the bike, takes much more time on between rides and
maintenance, and you will wear out parts. as miles davis said "so
what"
many folks on this list have there own way of doing things, from my experience
here's my advice:
-- fleece socks; cold feet are not happy feet. cotton socks lead quickly to
cold feet.
-- other synthetic layers are also worthy. and i've gone years and years
without any type of rain shell.
-- no need to use a hose. i put my bike in my garage after a ride, and then
once the mud is dried it easily wipes off. and then i clean the drive train
& braking surfaces each ride.
-- when replacing the chain and granny, replace the mid-ring too or visa-versa.
with a new chain, chain-suck is much more likely.
ken h.
Thu, 18 Oct 2007:
To: bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com
From: "bcrowley20" <brian@crowleynet.com>
Subject: Re: mud = bad?
You got it. Don't listen to those clean bike nancies :-) It's a
MOUNTAIN bike. Ride it all winter long. Give it a little
maintenance now and then and you will be fine.
Wed, 17 Oct 2007:
To: <bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com>
From: "Brian" <dirtdude21@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: mud = bad?
I pretty much do what every one else is doing, I wash after each use but I do
not use any soap, especially any soap that cuts grease, I just use my hand on
painted surfaces with lots of water, I use a nice stiff brush on my tires and a
long soft brush for hard to reach places like behind my derailers, in-between
my shift pods and break levers, hubs etc.
I bounce my bicycle vigorously a few times then bring it in my kitchen to drip
dry. I run it like that all winter and replace bearings and bushings that need
replacing in late spring and do the shift cables and a full tune at that time.
I, like you, like my paint... before each ride I use pledge furnisher polish,
its good stuff, it has carnauba in it and it smells great. don't forget to get
some kind of rubber or black electrical tape in that spot where your shift
cables rubs on your head tube, those cables will eat your paint right off.
lastly, I'd like to add that while I do care about your bicycle, I don't care
about it quite as much as the trails that we share... in other words, during
the long wet winter months the club endorses a tred lightly kind of trail usage
and suggests riding on trails that are well draining.
Is mud bad for our bikes? Yes, ride it anyway. is mud bad for the trail? Yes,
very bad, use your best judgment and research the best places to ride that are
well built and or well draining
Tue, 11 Oct 2007:
http://www.newwest.net/topic/article/are_we_ready_for_wilderness_lite/C146/L41/:
A couple of points -
1. Yes, cows are allowed in wilderness - all existing grazing rights were
grandfathered into the Wilderness Act due to how widespread grazing was and
still is, an unfortunate political necessity. See http://www.publiclandsranching.org
to see a good overview of this issue and the detrimental nature of grazing on
wild lands.
2. I tend to agree about horses - their impact is far greater than foot or
bicycle traffic - case in point the Wind River Range - duplicate trails across
high alpine meadows, droppings along the shores of alpine lakes etc. This, of
course, stems mostly from commercial operations with long strings of horses and
not so much from individual users.
3. Nonetheless, mountain biking should not be allowed in all wilderness -
although it is non-motorized - I see wilderness as a place for peaceful
meditation, and as much as I enjoy mountain biking, this it does not provide.
You are simply moving too fast and generally not appreciating the scenery and
natural character of an area as much when on a bike.
Designating mountain bike trails to exclude ORVs is important and should be
addressed on the ground in negotiations with alternatives such as National
Scenic Areas allowing flexible management or cherry stems for strictly
non-motorized MPV recreation. Dictating this from the top down as
"wilderness lite" in Congress could lead to too many lands being open
to mountain biking.
Thu, 20 Sep 2007:
To: bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com
From: "bcrowley20" <brian@crowleynet.com>
Subject: Re: bikers (bicyclists, not guys on Harleys) image problem
Who cares what non-mountain bikers think of what we wear? They are
never in the woods to see us anyway. If roadies want to wear spandex
outfits, they can fend for themselves.
Full Disclosure: I don't wear spandex and IMHO no self-respecting
Mountain Biker should.
Mon, 17 Sep 2007:
http://www.villagevoice.com/specials/bestof/2001/detail.php?id=2760
Best Illegal Mountain Biking - South Mountain Reservation
Imagine almost 20 miles of classic Eastern single-track-narrow, wooded,
rocky, rooted trails carved into the sides of steep little microhills—only 12
miles from the Empire State Building. Sounds like a mountain biker's nirvana?
Nirvana, yes, but Kurt Cobain's dead. You see, mountain biking in New Jersey's SOUTH
MOUNTAIN RESERVATION is illegal, banned by a turn-of-the-last-century law
designed to keep horse carriages out of the county's parks, and newly enforced
after complaints by a group of cranky Sierra Clubbers. Can you still ride it?
Let your conscience (or a friendly fellow desperado) be your guide. But don't
tell the cops we sent you. South Orange Avenue and Cherry Lane, West Orange,
New Jersey. -Allen St. John
Mon, 17 Sep 2007:
A few wrongs does not make a right! From a mountain bike trailbuilder at the 2006 world mountain bike conference http://www.trailcrewdesign.com/news_1.htm
(Where does this guy get off?)
August 2006 - 2006 IMBA World Mountain Bike Conference:
Management Solutions for Unauthorized Trails
As a builder of many so called "Illegal"
trails I had a personal interest in this session. The talk was given by Jim
Richardson of Surrey Off Road Cycling, Shawn Gurney from the City of Surrey and
Mark Peterson from Kona Bicycles. Shawn Gurney from the City of
Surrey started the discussion and talked about renegade trails built by
"kids" in Surrey. They showed pictures of poorly constructed
obstacles and talked about why these cannot take place in an urban setting. The
City of Surrey, like many other cities in Canada and I'm sure the United
States, have been dealing with the issue of renegade trails for some time now.
Their response was to use the land some of the existing trails were on and
create a city sanctioned downhill mountain bike park. Some of the old trails
were uses, some new ones were created. The construction of park features meets
the requirements of city playground regulations. The Surrey Off Road Cycling
club has been involved in aiding the city in their development of the park. A
great bike park was created for the residents of Surrey and has set the tone
for many other municipalities to follow suit.
While I share their opinion that in urban settings these renegade
trails may not have a place, I feel that without these "illegal"
trails our sport would not exist. Most, if not all trails I have
ridden were at some point considered "illegal". Many of these
"kids" who build these trails are 30+ years old and are simply trying
to create a place for them and their friends to ride their bikes. The city
building a park using an "illegal" trail system only confirms this.
We have built our sport which now includes city bike parks, lift accessed ski
resorts, indoor playgrounds all on the backs of those out in the bush. The guys
hanging in the trees have given us all a sport in which we can now have day
jobs. The way some might see it is that in areas with a lack of legitimate
trail access, if we all go out and build trails then someone has to do
something about it. Maybe this approach will give us a legitimate place
to ride our bikes? Obviously this isn't the answer I'm advocating but sometimes
do not the ends justify the means?
Fri, 14 Sep 2007:
On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 14:10:47 GMT, in alt.mountain-bike "JP"
<vze2wx8p@verizon.net> wrote:
"Mike Vandeman" <mjvande@pacbell.net> wrote in message news:f57he3lb8nfufl5dteb20molfgs47obt5e@4ax.com...
> Hmmm. No mention of the MULTI-LANE FREEWAY right above them. In
> denial? The space is "wasted" because of people like you, who insist
> on driving motor vehicles. Or do you BIKE to all of your trails? ...
Do you really need to smacked across the head with a dead fish?
EVERYBODY DRIVES YOU PATHETIC FOOL!!!!
People like me apparently is everyone who isn't you.
We all drive ....
Sun, 2 Sep 2007:
To: "'Erik Alston'"
<hawkens@riderinserepeat.com>
Cc: "'BBTC'" <bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com>
From: "bob" <bmhollan@comcast.net>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:bbtcmembers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Tolt
I rode Tolt today and wasn't alone; there were other creatures on the
trail:>). I was greeted by a Vulture and Snake in the parking lot; what a
way to start the ride:>) Next came the cyclocrossers; whoooooooooosh and up
the hill they go; how do they do that?
The next part is a gray area for me, I might be wrong or out of line; I'm
sure you'll let me know:>) I'm not sure what others do when they meet hikers
on the trail because I rarely-if ever go on other people's rides; yawl ride
too fast for me.
Anyway, my style is to either stop or slow down enough to say hi how are you
when I meet hikers on the trail; I go out of my way to be respectful. I
watched a couple guys blast by two groups of hikers today; both with kids
and dogs.
We were at the top of IAB and IMO, there was no reason they couldn't have
stopped and yielded the right of way to the hikers; after all, hikers and
other trail users have the right away. Not these guys, they just blasted
past everyone. Their dog was running ahead of them and that might be part of
the reason they didn't stop; the hikers had dogs too, but theirs were on
leashes. At the very least, I don't think the riders left a good impression
on the hikers.
I'm not sure what other people think, but as I see it, more and more people
are going to be using local trails; especially the parks. Most people do not
ride mountain bikes; we're a minority. I know many of you have been saying
this for longer than I've been riding, but I think it's very good business
for us to go out of our way to be courteous to others on the trail; you
never know who you're going to meet. My 2 cents.
I've got a question about trail work at Tolt, feedback please:>) From the
5-way, I usually head down the South-east road and start on Mystery; I
usually take one of the three trails that branch off in different
directions. I rode the same way as I have for the last few months, but when
I came to one of the trails I usually take, I found that it had been
blocked; just wondering who's blocking trails and why? The trail wasn't just
blocked with a log or pile of branches, there was brush piled all up and
down the trail; somebody didn't want any one riding or using that spur; my
question is who's blocking the trail like that and why?
I'm not sure where I rode today, but I ended up on some new (to me) trails.
I went up the road next to the entrance of Vicious Quail and took the first
trail on the left. I took what seemed like several different trails and
didn't have a clue where I was. Not sure how I ended up on the trail that
goes down to the look out, but that's what happened; I followed the trail
and popped back out on the South Road right in front of the little trail
that leads to Erik's bridge.
As I was heading down IAB, I passed a small group of riders, one of them was
holding onto a small black bag. The sack appeared to have something inside;
it was moving around as if whatever was in there was alive; I swear I heard
something screeching from inside. Do you think there's a chance the Attack
Bird was in the sack? Maybe somebody will have to ride Vicious Quail to see
if the crazy bird is still there.
Bob h
Fri, Aug 10 2007:
Newsgroups: alt.mountain-bike
From: Ride-A-Lot <mitchell@schnauzers.ws>
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 19:01:08 GMT
Subject: Re: need suggestions on mountain bike, thanks a lot
Any bike you buy from a big box store (i.e. Target, Wal-Mart, Dicks,
Sports Authority, etc.) is going to be JUNK. If you ware going to do
any actual mountain biking, you will very very disappointed with the
performance.
For a new mountain bike, the low-end entry level bike (Specialized
Rockhopper is one) will cost around $500. You should buy a bike from a
reputable bicycle shop. They will take the time to put you on the best
bike you can afford and that fits you comfortably.
You are in Columbia, Missouri if my lookup is current. It is a college
town. Most college towns have at least a couple of good bicycle shops.
If the $500 is out of your price range, then your next best place is
used. Even a used good mountain bike is better than a big box bike (or
more commonly called Bicycle Shaped Toys). See if you can find a
Rockhopper, Giant Yukon, Kona Cinder Cone, or even a ~Shudder~ Gary
Fisher on Craigslist.
If the bike says Mongoose, Schwinn (unless it's 10 years old), Huffy,
Next, Jeep, Columbia (they make clothing and tents - not bikes), then
RUN!
Sun, 12 Aug 2007:
[It's
nice to see a mountain biker admit the damage they are doing. Mike]
To: bbtclistserve2003 <bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com>
From: Lisa Parsons <backyardadventuregirl@comcast.net>
Sun, 12 Aug 2007 08:37:11 -0700
Subject: Re:Strange encounter at Tokul E
Mire,
The writing is on the wall for motos. Plum Creek and some other land
owners got a million dollar clean-up bill because of all the resource
damage from motos, people shooting and garbage dumping. They along
with Kombol have posted their property and now have full time security
which patrols their property. Out where I live when motos are found
the sheriff is called and they cite the moto users. They have also
ditched every trail access which is a drag for us non-moto users.
They have also closed areas in Idaho on private timberland where my
parents live. You now have to pay a $75/ year access fee to go on their
land.
Private land owners simply can't afford the cost of repairing resource
damage.
I think the biggest worry we'll have as a user group is the sheer mass
if illegal trail building especially around wetlands and creeks. I
think if the trend continues that we may face the same closures as the
motos. I think at Lake Sawyer the reason the land owners have been as
tolerant of the sheer mass of trails in that area is because most of
that land is slated for development. I don't think the same will be
true on designated open space.
Just my thoughts on the issue.
Lisa
Because the best adventures are right in my backyard.
backyardadventuregirl@comcast.net
31 Dec 2005:
By tomas suk
http://www.newwest.net/index.php/city/article/4873/C25/L8:
I've been a mountain biker since 1982,
and i enjoy riding on dirt very much. But i don't want to see bikes in
wilderness. When i'm out walking in wilderness, i don't like hurrying to get
out of the way of fast-moving bikes, i don't like all the flashy colors, or the
dust they create. And more to the point, just seeing the tire tracks from bikes
already passed makes the area feel small and shatters the
"disconnect" from the modern technoloigical world that only
wilderness can provide.
16 Dec 2005:
By Michael Mejia
http://www.newwest.net/index.php/city/article/4873/C25/L8:
I appreciate the concern for the potential misuse
of lands by the mtb community, i.e., "existing singletrack, willy-nilly,
following game trails -- not to mention the willful construction of trails, and
BC-style structures." We have soiled our own nest.
28
May 2007:
davidarnott
mtbr
member
some
bicycles are quieter than walking and of course, one can cover a lot more
ground on a bike. the important thing is the noise Most game animals have
excellent hearing and are very sensitive to the sounds of predators (human)
which is the sound of internal combustion engines, yakking, stereos, etc. so I
have had very good luck hunting fromt he bicycle as long as I can remember not
to talk to myself whilst riding, a little habit of mine,
the
problem is that it is hard to look around while riding a bicycle and the
movement also catches the eye of game. When hunting from a bike I find it
necessary to stop regularly and look around and listen. Nowadays I mostly hunt
photos but its pretty much the same thing.
davidarnott
some bicycles are quieter than walking and of course, one can cover a lot more
ground on a bike. the important thing is the noise Most game animals have
excellent hearing and are very sensitive to the sounds of predators (human)
which is the sound of internal combustion engines, yakking, stereos, etc. so I
have had very good luck hunting fromt he bicycle as long as I can remember not
to talk to myself whilst riding, a little habit of mine,
the
problem is that it is hard to look around while riding a bicycle and the
movement also catches the eye of game. When hunting from a bike I find it
necessary to stop regularly and look around and listen. Nowadays I mostly hunt
photos but its pretty much the same thing.
Tue,
3 Jul 2007:
From:
Josh <mtbikes@gmail.com>
Subject:
Re: [ROMP] Membership decline is real and fast - ROMP threatened
Mountain
biking is about the American Dream - the rugged
individualist,
man against the odds overcoming nature, cruising his
territory
under his own power. It is not about joining a club. Look at
the
names of bikes - Maverick, Nomad, Heckler, Enduro, Uzzi, Epic,
Racer
X, El Conquistador de Montanas. Why aren't bikes called
Advocate,
Political Action, Harmony, Peace, Co-operation, Flock, Herd,
Sea
Breeze, Poppies, Druid, or Nature Boy?
Tue,
3 Jul 2007:
From:
"L. Daniel Levy" <dan@btceb.org>
To:
"'ROMP List'" <romp@ns.live555.com>
Subject:
Re: [ROMP] Membership decline is real and fast - ROMP threatened
Have
book, will travel...read on, I hope to be helpful.
We
have the same phenomenon in the East Bay. While we can say that we are
presently
growing out of a steady decline, it has been said that mountain
biking
as a whole has seen some decline. Bike sales have dropped.
We
also have the same problems with recruiting leadership positions. We
still
have empty director seats and committees are nil.
At
the IMBA Summit at Sea Otter, I briefly mentioned that we had designed a
new
way to solicit membership by having local bike shops sell our
memberships
for us. I am now ready to share with ROMP, our mountain biking
advocacy
sister group, what we have done up here and how the program looks
today.
History
shows that we had 500 members - probably our all time high - when we
were
formed in 1987. We met our all-time low about 2 years ago when our
rolls
had dropped to a meager 150 members. We now have about 180 members
and
we are climbing thanks to our new program.
We
recognized that there had been alienated portions of the East Bay due to
some
of our prior leadership being so focused on the hot potatoes of certain
central
parks that they forgot about the rest of the East Bay - a vast
cross-section
of types of parks and a huge geographic region.
I
mention this because ROMP is also such a vast geographic region. Is it
possible
that certain regions are being neglected?
Our
new program consists of outreach to the local bike shops in our area to
sell
our memberships for us at a retail mark-up. Effectively, it means we
take
a break-even membership cost for each new member.
Our
annual membership is now $25, raised from $20 as of January this year.
IMBA
raised theirs, we raised ours. The end intent is to raise $3-5/member
to
donate to IMBA-CA annually but initially, we needed the additional
membership
to fund the program.
The
program is made up of a retail packet. The packet contains a membership
form,
card, a bumper sticker and a smaller version to be stuck on a fork or
frame
and a Clif Bar, donated generously by Clif.
We
sell the packets to the LBS wholesale for $15/ea and they sell them for
us
at $25/ea. They make the standard 40% mark-up on it as if it were any
other
retail product. Additionally, each shop, assuming that they were not
previously
a "retail member" buys a retail membership at $50, for which we
advertise
on our website in trade. For each new member, the LBS makes a
small
profit and gets advertising and we get new members.
The
roll-out cost was about $3500 for posters, stickers, packaging and
printing
the special self-laminating membership cards and forms. This was
for
about 1500 membership packets. It takes time to fold and stuff and seal
the
packets. A couple of members can make 100 packets in less than 20
minutes.
The
up-side is that we hope that when we send the renewal notice that a
portion
of these new members will renew at a higher level by mail or PayPal
and
that we will keep the entire membership, instead of sharing with our LBS
partners.
We
started with 5 shops. It took a while to interview shops to make sure
that
they were willing to do this for us and that they would give us top
billing.
We interviewed about 12 shops before we settled on 5 for our pilot
program
shops. These 5 shops are spread out around the area.
The
intent of starting with 5 of the nearly 60 independently owned bike
shops
in Alameda and Contra Costa Counties was to get all of the bugs ironed
out
before approaching the other shops. We formed an unofficial committee
of
members to represent and be liaison for each of the 5 shops. Some of
these
have been more involved in the program than others and the involvement
shows
in the shops' sales.
It's
been a learning process. We're corrected some marketing issues and
gotten
the shop employees trained to some marginality. Two of our 5 have
not
been addressed well and so far have not sold memberships. The other 3
have
sold a total of 35 memberships since we started the program in March -
half
of those within the last month.
In
August, we plan to launch the next wave of shops. We have 7 more members
that
have started the process of getting our presence in the shops to
prepare
them for the program. We hope that at least 3 of the new shops will
participate.
We are also looking for other members to start with other
shops.
In
order for this to happen, we have moved our monthly meetings around as
well.
We have held our meetings in Walnut Creek, Danville, Pleasanton,
Livermore
and will be in Oakland next and Antioch after that. We have seen
that
we get a different cross-section of members at each meeting. Of each
new
group that attends a meeting, a sub group becomes really involved.
We
have also had information kiosks and group rides that move each month.
We
set up an Ez-Up at a park entrance, with the park supervisor's approval
and
input of course. We enlist a member or 2 from the nearby area to lead
group
rides of their home park and keep people at the "booth" to give away
Clif
Bars and inform the public of our existence and try to recruit new
members.
Coordinating the location of the Info Kiosks on the 4th Saturday
of
the month and the location of the meeting on the 1st Tuesday has been a
challenge.
In
the meanwhile, we will also have a small party thanking the 5 pilot shops
for
their participation and we have collected some swag awards from
manufacturers
to reward not only the shop but the highest-selling shop
employee.
I'm
proud of this program. Chuck Davis and I, with help from the rest of
the
BTCEB directors have created what I think is a really good product.
We
think that once the program is in full swing that we should have about 20
shops.
If each shop sells only 2 memberships per month, we can easily have
480
new members in a year...sounds crazy, I know...
Dan
Levy
Director
At Large
Bicycle
Trails Council of the East Bay
http://www.btceb.org
(925)
383-7436
Tue,
3 Jul 2007:
From:
"Jim Preston" <lists@conceptuate.com>
To:
"ROMP List" <romp@ns.live555.com>
Subject:
[ROMP] Membership decline is real and fast - ROMP threatened
Paul
mentioned that membership is steady in absolute terms but dropping as a
percentage
of the area's population. Paul and I have previously discussed
what
a poor showing ROMP has among South Bay Area MTB'ers.
This
is from Josh's report in the first quarter 2007 newsletter:
18
months ago
we
had about 350 members and now
we
are down to about 250.
I
joined ROMP about the time that Paul became president. So as a time
reference
this occurred during Paul's and Josh's presidencies. I attended a
meeting
when I first joined and Glenn's report was 400+ members. So
membership
has declined about 40%. This rate and depth of decline is
usually
fatal for organizations. ROMP has something like a 20% chance of
survival.
I
do not accept some poster's observations that membership naturally goes up
and
down and thereby trying to bury the issue. Hope-for-the-best management
usually
results in failure. (Our involvement in Iraq?) There are plenty of
issues
that are interesting to a much broader spectrum of MTB'ers and ROMP
is
addressing many of them. Sure, issues drive membership, but why isn't
membership
going up if issues alone are the drivers?
There
were 7 attendees at the June meeting. Am I alone in thinking that the
membership
isn't engaged and motivated. Several times I've suggested
meeting
online so that more members could participate, including myself, but
this
was rejected for the more social aspects of meeting in person. I value
participation
well above having beers over club business.
The
membership should know about that discussion.
I've
been sounding the alarm for several years but nothing is being done.
The
membership, or what share of the membership is on this list, should
understand
this issue. I don't like discussing it because it is
uncomfortable
for everyone. I would much rather discuss MTB travel
adventures.
However,
is the emotional challenge of the topic a reason to bury the
issue???
Is that a reason to keep it from the newsletter? Should we just
keep
discussing trail work and bike parts as the club fades away? Should we
just
hope that somehow the public will again get excited about joining ROMP?
As
I've said, I've been trying to sell this club on the trails around this
valley
for something like four years and it is a hard sell. I've never seen
anything
like it since I started recruiting in 1962.
Is
bringing up difficult topics divisive? Self-serving? Self-righteous?
Probably
every accusation is true to some extent but at least I'm doing it.
(Self-serving
for sure because I want trails that I can ride at age 70 and I
joined
ROMP because I thought that was the best way to get them. I'm 56 so
I'm
in a bit of a hurry.)
I've
tried a variety of approaches but nothing seems to work. If I'm
positive
then nothing happens and if I hit hard then I get flamed and
nothing
happens. By the way, using a negative tactic is often the only way
to
get people's attention and I've found it more effective at times. I do
have
supporters off-list who do not want to respond publicly because they do
not
want to be flamed. Nice healthy situation, heh?
Several
years ago I started a ROMP membership drive and several of us
distributed
ROMP brochures. However, the person keeping the membership
information
at the time did not want to give me reports about the
effectiveness
of the campaign from the information he was receiving so I
gave
up. For those who have never done a membership campaign I'll mention
that
it is critical to understand who is responding and the referral
sources.
All the information I could get was a comment that not many new
memberships
were coming in so I quit. I'm not going to waste my time.
That
is information that members should be aware of.
I
suggested some time ago that we have a members only list serv for such
discussions
but it was rejected. Members should know that the option was
discussed
and it seems like the general membership should vote on it, not
just
the very few who are active. With all the fantastic Internet
applications
available to us this is very easy and cheap to do.
I've
offered many times to share my more than four decades of experience in
organization
leadership, including dozens of civic groups, with the ROMP
presidents.
(That donated time could be worth tens of thousands of dollars
to
ROMP, if not much more.) I've also suggested books on the topic on
Amazon
that they could read that would probably offer better researched
advice
than I could provide. Josh and Paul both know well that I've really
tried
to increase the leadership skills and direction of ROMP but nothing
has
happened.
(For
those who don't remember and before you start flaming me I am already
very
busy on a variety of other projects. I'm only interested in trails,
not
the other ROMP activities.)
Josh
and Paul work their asses off for the club. They are very fine people
and
dedicated to ROMP. They are among the small group that does the heavy
lifting
in ROMP. They do the club activities they like and have time to do,
which
is fine. However, for long-term survival ROMP needs organization
builders.
I mean many. One builder is not enough.
The
president's job should be very different than what I've seen in ROMP.
This
role provides functions such as planning, organizing, controlling, and
coordinating.
The details about how this would work in ROMP is too much for
a
list serv so I won't get into them. However, the membership should be
aware
that a very different and more effective approach to club leadership
is
possible and is needed soon. The qualifications for president is not who
does
the most work but who can fulfill the management functions best.
For
my purposes, trail advocacy, new construction, and maintenance, I think
it
would be easier to build a new organization that can get involved in
politics.
ROMP certainly has a role in trails advocacy as long as it
exists,
but I need a broader base. I don't have time to organize it now but
I'm
picking away at this project. Interesting, only one person on this list
volunteered
to help. I think there is a whole different crowd out there
that
is more interested in this topic and they aren't in ROMP.
ROMP
needs to recruit organization leaders. ROMP needs a business plan to
sell
to these people. ROMP needs to pay for leadership conferences /
training
for incoming presidents. ROMP needs to increase membership
participation
through the Internet. After that then ROMP needs a real PR /
marketing
campaign with broad support. ROMP needs to evolve from its current
processes
to survive.
Those
steps will build ROMP into a more effective organization for its
varied
and highly useful functions. Flying by the seat-of-the pants won't.
Sorry
if that insults some people but we can see where inaction is getting
us.
When I soft pedal an issue as to not hurt feelings then the issue
evaporates
on this list with few posts and nothing happens. I bet not one of
you
remembers those posts. Kathleen recently mentioned psychology and that
negativism
doesn't work to motivate people to act. Unfortunately it is
often
the only way to get action and it can be very effective. It is used
all
around us every day. It is the only tactic I have left to use with
ROMP.
So
who with organizational and leadership skills is lined up to replace Josh
next
year?
-
jim
Thu,
7 Jun 2007:
From:
stripes <stripes@tigerlair.com>
To:
Josh <mtbikes@gmail.com>
Cc:
"'ROMP'" <romp@ns.live555.com>
Subject:
Re: [ROMP] [Touchy Feely] Mutual admiration personal accomplishment
congratulations
Thanks
for doing this Josh :)
Tonight
I cleaned the Seven Springs loop, counterclockwise, down and up.
I've
never linked them both before, but I was able to have some flow tonight.
I'd
like to make it from the Prospect parking lot to Hunter's point without
stopping,
but I can do it with only one stop. [What's the value of never stopping?! Mike]
-Anne
On
Wed, Jun 06, 2007 at 09:47:20PM -0700, Josh wrote:
>
The idea of this thread is to post what you recently cleared / climbed
>
/ rode / did that you could not, or did not think you could do before.
>
This is your chance to say what you did and get a pat on the back.
>
Everyone is welcome to post their accomplishment and / or 'atta boy'.
>
>
OK now, so we all now know that Paul can climb the loose churned up
>
trails at RCDO. Congratulations Paul! that is quite an accomplishment!
>
That is so cool! (I am not being sarcastic, BTW).
>
>
When I first joined ROMP, for me it was a big deal to ride from the
>
Prospect lot into Fremont Older and all the way to hunter's point.
>
Later, it was riding up the back side from the dam without stopping.
>
Last month, I cleared all of Dutches Trail for the first time. It is
>
amazing to reflect on how far I have come.
>
>
Now, what about you?
Mon,
4 Jun 2007:
http://bb.nsmb.com/showthread.php?t=893&page=5:
You
need to slow the hell down before you pass people on the trails. Make it a
point, especially if you're sneaking up behind them. Nobody likes being
startled, especially if they're out for a Sunday walk in the woods. Not only
that, but our bikes are basically 2-wheeled 4x4 trucks. The tires kick up a lot
of dust and it sucks to be a hiker and inhale that shit.
To:
bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com
From:
"Jon Kennedy" <jon@bbtc.org>
List-Subscribe:
<mailto:bbtcmembers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com>
Date:
Tue, 22 May 2007 17:55:24 -0000
Subject:
Staff Night Out (5/30) -- Gray Area Conversation --
Come
join Justin and Jon next Wednesday at the Redhook Brewery in
Woodinville
for the fourth BBTC Staff Night Out.
At
this pub night we want your feedback on what our policy on gray
trails
should be. A gray trail is one where the land owner informally
allows
us to maintain, build or use trails on their land, but there
is
no formal written policy. Sometimes they like us there to keep the
meth
heads and dumping out, but it is a "don't ask, don't tell" type
thing.
Should we ignore gray trails, encourage their use, try to shut
them
down, support their maintenance? We want to know what you think.
Thu,
10 May 2007:
From:
Ted Stroll <tedstroll@yahoo.com>
Subject:
Irony of the Little Sur River, bikes, and Wilderness
I've
been following this discussion with interest. I went to the website that Jim
Preston included in his first e-mail and noted that he says the trail is
little-used and neglected. I've heard similar things about certain trails in
Wilderness elsewhere in the western United States: they're deteriorating or
disappearing because of lack of use and inadequate maintenance. How ironic,
then, that cyclists can't use them, all because of federal agency
misinterpretations of the Wilderness Act of 1964, which in my view does not
prohibit mountain biking in Wilderness. If cyclists could ride in the Ventana
Wilderness, I have no doubt we'd be helping to maintain the trail and by using
it keep it clear for other users.
Ted
Stroll
Fri,
27 Apr 2007:
To:
bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com
From:
hawkens@riderinserepeat.com
List-Subscribe:
<mailto:bbtcmembers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com>
Subject:
Great Weather brings out more Hikers and Equestrians
The
weather is getting nicer and with that we will be coming across more
hikers
and equestrians on the trails.
Just
a friendly reminder that hikers and horses always have the right
way.
When riding in areas that are known to be used by Equestrians be
on
the lookout for them. Horses can easily be spooked by our bikes and
cause
the rider to be thrown from the horse and could end up really bad
for
the rider. Watch out for them and talk to the Equestrians and their
horse,
so that we spread some goodwill and let the horse know that our
bikes
dont bite
Lets
not ruin a great season by running over a Hiker or spooking a
horse.
Thanks
for reading,
-E
Snoq
Wed,
25 Apr 2007:
From:
Dave Wade <mtnbiker94@sbcglobal.net>
To:
markflint@earthlink.net, ROMP Email List <romp@ns.live555.com>
Subject:
Re: [ROMP] dowdy ranch
List-Subscribe:
<http://lists.live555.com/mailman/listinfo/romp>,
<mailto:romp-request@lists.live555.com?subject=subscribe>
Sadly,
also true for State of California wilderness.
---
markflint@earthlink.net wrote:
>
This is true for federal wilderness. Is this federal
>
land?
>
>
--mark
>
>
On 24 Apr 2007 at 9:10, Josh wrote:
>
>
> No mechanized in Wilderness which excludes bikes!
Mon,
16 Apr 2007:
[So
much for environmentally friendly mountain biking! Mike]
From:
Paul Nam <vocinam@yahoo.com>
Subject:
[ROMP] Looking for Coe Epic Ride Leaders and SAG drivers
List-Subscribe:
<http://lists.live555.com/mailman/listinfo/romp>,
<mailto:romp-request@lists.live555.com?subject=subscribe>
Folks,
We
had the meeting at the Tied House tonight. I am coordinating the ride leaders
and SAG drivers. We need more of both.
There
are various ways of riding the Epic apart from doing the whole shooting match.
The entire epic is 28 miles and 6,000 feet of climbing, and smaller variations
are possible. We are hoping to be able to provide a variety of smaller distance
rides for those interested in a guided experience. Ride leaders will get Coe
maps (to keep) and detailed instructions concerning the loops they lead. Ride
leaders will be invited to the pre-ride/course marking weekend May 5-6.
SAG
drivers are needed. SAG stands for Support and Gear. While SAG drivers will not
be able to ride, they will also not have to ride. 4wd high clearance vehicles
and first responder training are recommended, as well as bike racks and seats
(DPR regulations require seats for all passengers in State Parks). Vehicles
such as crew-cab pickups and SUVs are ideal. The role of the SAG driver is to
patrol dirt roads and assist riders who need/request assistance with
mechanical, medical, food, water and transport needs. This could also include
assisting in evacuation. The patrol routes are defined. SAG drivers will be
invited to the pre-ride as well.
In
other news, I have word that Felt bikes will be available for demo at the
event, from our remote support station run and staffed by Sunshine Bikes of
Gilroy.
Over
and out for now. For further details please write me.
Thanks,
Paul
Wed,
11 Apr 2007:
From:
"Todd Schlemmer" <nullman@earthlink.net>
Subject:
RE: Weirdest Things Are Seen When Biking
I
guess I should look up from the trail more often when I ride...
Sun,
08 Apr 2007:
From:
"David Coolidge" <dacoolidge@hotmail.com>
To:
ebbc-talk@lists.ebbc.org
Subject:
Re: [ebbc-talk] FW: Another run-in with Critical Mass
List-Subscribe:
<http://lists.ebbc.org/listinfo.cgi/ebbc-talk-ebbc.org>,
<mailto:ebbc-talk-request@lists.ebbc.org?subject=subscribe>
The
news story I read made it seem that the cyclists got in the way of the
limo
and blocked it's path with no obvious reason other than to mess with
the
driver. If I were he, that would have alarmed me - I'd be thinking
along
the lines of "now they've immobilized me, are they going to rob
me?"
This
whole incident seems to have involved a great deal of foolishness, and
I
am dismayed when my fellow cyclists get on one of these "who shot
John"
kicks,
like now. People aren't going to take us seriously if we insist on
defending
stupid, aggressive, obnoxious behavior. In itself, riding a bike
is
no sign of superior moral character - all it takes to become a cyclist is
a
Target or Costco store and $200. There are some real jerks out
riding
around,
and it's a shame they get into the papers, but they do.
David
Coolidge
dacoolidge@hotmail.com
>From:
"John P" <jprelock@gmail.com>
>To:
"Zach Kaplan" <zakaplan@earthlink.net>
>CC:
EBBC DISCUSSION LIST <ebbc-talk@lists.ebbc.org>
>Subject:
Re: [ebbc-talk] FW: Another run-in with Critical Mass
>Date:
Sun, 8 Apr 2007 14:28:38 -0700
>
>On
4/8/07, Zach Kaplan <zakaplan@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> After briefly exchanging words with the man, Webb said he grabbed the
>
> male cyclist's bike and tried to pull it out of the way.
>
>In
the case of the minvan it sounded overwhelmingly like the minivan
>was
the first to commit assault by knocking the first cyclist over,
>after
which a number of infractions and/or crimes were possibly
>committed
by both sides.
>
>In
the case of the limo it sounds like the driver admitted he was the
>first
to commit assault (if grabbing someone's bike that they're
>holding
is assault) after which a number of infractions and/or crimes
>were
possibly committed by both sides.
>
>Escalation,
while perhaps human, is certainly not a good way to
>diffuse
a situation, but is it ok for drivers to commit assault for
>admittedly
being held up in traffic?
>
>
-John
>_______________________________________________
>ebbc-talk
mailing list
>ebbc-talk@lists.ebbc.org
>http://lists.ebbc.org/listinfo.cgi/ebbc-talk-ebbc.org
_________________________________________________________________
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Wed,
4 Apr 2007:
From:
Paul Nam vocinam@yahoo.com [past president of ROMP]
To:
fstanke@comcast.net, Ted Stroll <tedstroll@yahoo.com>,
Shelley Potts <spotty4@hotmail.com>
Cc:
romp@ns.live555.com
Subject:
Re: [ROMP] Ohioans want mtn biking in nat'l parks
List-Subscribe:
<http://lists.live555.com/mailman/listinfo/romp>,
<mailto:romp-request@lists.live555.com?subject=subscribe>
Sometimes
it seems responsible organized mountainbikers is an oxymoron ...!
Sat,
17 Mar 2007:
From:
"Doug Walsh" <dougwalsh@centurytel.net>
Subject:
RR: Snoqualmie Valley Tour
I
expected to do this ride alone, but fortunately there were two other souls
who
didn't mind braving the rain, the mileage, and my horrendous navigating
and
decided to come along. I admit I was a bit nervous when I saw an
unfamilliar
name with no BBTC rides under his belt sign up for today's ride.
And
I was even more nervous when the first words out of his mouth this
morning
involved the the phrase "second time on the bike since November".
Gulp.
I turned away to hide my obvious look of concern -- he did read the 50
miles
and 6 hours part of the ride description, did he not? When I looked
back
I noticed that on further inspection Bill looked very fit and his red
OCLV
Fuel spoke of someone who is serious about his XC riding. And yes he
was.
After
the introductions were over, I led Bill and Stephanie through a quick
tour
of some Snoqualmie Ridge double-track then down towards Salish Lodge
and
onto the SVT. Next stop, Tolt-MacDonald Park! We boogied up IAB --
graciously
acknowledigng all of the riders who yielded to those of us going
uphill
-- and proceeded to get lost. It was BIll's first time to Tolt and
Steph's
first time in 2 years and, well, God knows I don't know my way
around
up there. We ended up riding Oxbow, Shaefer, MLR, some of the Burn
(mostly
cleared now), Mystery, and a few other choice trails (some a couple
times
due to my poor navigating) and putting in about 6 miles or so of
singletrack.
The
rain started to come just as we began working our way back to the 5-way
and
starting our descent on IAB. A quick snack at the group cabin, then back
onto
the SVT. Next stop, Tokul-West. The rain was coming down pretty hard
and
we were getting pretty dirty. Tokul West would likely be muddy. Bill
said
goodbye at the beaver dam washout on the SVT and Stephanie and I headed
up
into the woods. I'm not an ace at Tokul West, but I can work my way from
the
entrance up to the base of Bon-Bon. We were a ways into the ride and the
rain
was coming down pretty steadily so we settled into a whirlwind tour of
Tokul
West: up Bon-Bon, over to Outback and down to Full Bench and out Sgt
Wells.
Good times. The horses have really made a mess of upper Bon-Bon and
upper
Full Bench was a swamp, but aside from my endoing on one of the
switchbacks
on Full Bench, all was well. Back down to the SVT, another
snack,
and then back to Snoqualmie Ridge for a trip to the Snoqualmie
Brewery
Taproom for some Green Nitro Pale Ale and a corned beef sandwich &
Irish
stew.
Thanks
again to Stephanie and Bill for coming out today. Everyone knows how
strong
a rider Stephanie is, and it's good to get those long rides in with
her.
And I hope to see Bill on other BBTC rides -- a great addition to the
local
riding crew!
Mileage:
46.9 miles
Elevation
Gain: 3,015 feet
Saddle
Time: 5 hours
Total
Time: 6 hours, 15 minutes
Calories
Burned: 4500
Now
it's on to Orcas tomorrow for a ride-it-all trip on Mt Pickett and Mt
Constitution.
Thanks
for reading,
Doug
Thu,
15 Mar 2007:
From:
markflint@earthlink.net
To:
ROMP <romp@ns.live555.com>
Subject:
Re: [ROMP] Epic Bad Idea
List-Subscribe:
<http://lists.live555.com/mailman/listinfo/romp>,
<mailto:romp-request@lists.live555.com?subject=subscribe>
All
an email campaign would do now is revive focus on something that
happened
back in February..
I'd
rather see people emailing the NPS objecting to a sentence in the
text
they required the bozos to include on their Website,
ridingthespine.com,
which said that mountain bikes cause
environmental
damage. (The text is now gone; apparently the
requirement
was for it to be there a couple of weeks.)
These
guys are from Santa Cruz, according to an article in the
Chronicle.
--mark
On
14 Mar 2007 at 21:20, Timothy Daniels wrote:
>
If you ask me, they got off easy. All it takes is one "oh shit"
to
>
erase thousands of "atta boy's" I'm sure the image these
boobs
>
portray as mountain bikers will stay those who read about it for a
>
good long time. I'd be willing to bet they still don't think what
>
they did was bad enough to warrant any penalties. What they need is
>
some good old fashioned peer pressure. A kick in the pants from
some
>
fellow mountain bikers would do nicely. I think an e-mail campaign
>
would be a good idea.
>
>
Tim
>
>
On Mar 14, 2007, at 8:57 PM, Jane Taylor wrote:
>
>
> Sent to me by my sister, who used to work for the National Park
>
> Service and still gets their ranger reports:
>
>
>
> Grand Canyon National Park (AZ)
>
> Conviction For Illegal Mountain Biking
>
>
>
> On January 20th, three men - David Yost, Sean Monterastelli, and
>
> Jacob Thompson - hiked out the Bright Angel Trail, backpacking out
>
> their mountain bikes. The group of three cyclists told visitors
>
> that they were on a two-year-long mountain biking trip, riding
>
> their bikes from Prudhoe Bay, Alaska, to the tip of South America,
>
> and that they had carried their bikes across the canyon. They also
>
> told them to look at their web page (http://
>
> www.ridingthespine.com). Several days later, ranger Paul Austin
>
> checked out the page and discovered photos and video of the group
>
> riding their bikes on the North Kaibab Trail. In addition, there
>
> were photos and video of them camped on an upper section of the
>
> trail. In their journal, they wrote about riding the trail and
>
> their concern about being caught by rangers: "(We) began riding
>
> down the trail.'Goat' [one of the three] managed to bomb section
>
> after section of the trail, walking his bike only when coming into
>
> contact with other trail hikers, and when those infuriating water
>
> bars were too high to bunny hop.we were excited by the prospects of
>
> a day filled with epic downhill, we hopped on our bikes and headed
>
> down, sliding our way down a treacherous mix of snow and loose
>
> rock. Almost immediately I flew over a series of ledges and cracked
>
> the rear end off my Xtracycle." On February 16th, Austin and
AUSA
>
> Camille Bibles presented a criminal complaint and affidavit before
>
> US Magistrate Judge Mark Aspey in Flagstaff, who in turn issued a
>
> summons for the group to appear in his court. Yost, Monterastelli
>
> and Thompson were charged with camping without a permit, camping in
>
> an undesignated area, use of a bicycle in a closed area, giving
>
> false information, and conspiracy. Austin tracked the individuals
>
> through their website as they rode to Southern Arizona and prepared
>
> to cross into Mexico. They had posted in their blog that they were
>
> attending the "24 Hours in the Old Pueblo," a large and
popular
>
> mountain bike race north of Tucson. Saguaro rangers Todd Austin and
>
> Heather Yates drove to the event site on February 17th and were
>
> able to locate the trio. Austin posed as a freelance writer
>
> interested in the group's trip, then later identified himself as a
>
> federal law enforcement ranger and issued each his summons to
>
> appear in court in Flagstaff. The three men retained an attorney
>
> and subsequently reached a plea agreement to three charges. In lieu
>
> of a $500 fine, the men agreed to donate $500 each to the Grand
>
> Canyon Search & Rescue Fund. They also agreed to redact sections
of
>
> their website pertaining to illegal activities and were sentenced
>
> to 48 hours in Coconino County jail. The case generated
>
> considerable media attention. [Submitted by Bil Vandergraff,
>
> Supervisory Park Ranger, Canyon District]
Mon,
12 Mar 2007:
From:
markflint@earthlink.net
I
ran over a small diamondback once. It was OK -- I stopped and
watched
it crawl away.Usually I have time to bunny hop or swing
around
them. During snake season, which is now in full bloom, I often
see
two or three rattlesnakes on one ride. I've seen them combat
dancing,
sleeping coiled in the trail (they love to burrrow into the
loose
dirt so they are half-buried during the cool of night and
morning)
and stretched across the trail. I once caught a front tire
on
a rock while braking for a three-foot Diamondback, went OTB and
landed
on my chest. I closed my eyes on impact and when I opened them
the
snake's head was maybe two inches away from my left eye, so close
it
was blurry. I flopped out of the way in a nanosecond, and it never
even
backed into a coil. Luck or karma, perhaps, (I am a vociferous
opponent
of the idiots who think they need to be killed) but most
likely
the fact that they rely on camouflage as their primary
defense,
and movement compromises it. Or it could have been too busy
laughing
silent little snake laughs at the idiot who fell off his
bike.
So
yeah, occasionally we may run over a snake, but I don't know that
the
overal environmental impact is any greater than the pollution a
hiker
puts into the air driving to a trailhead.
--mark
On
12 Mar 2007 at 11:11, Shelley Potts wrote:
>
Do folks out there really ride over the occasional snake!?! I've personally
>
never come across such a situation. Does
it happen often!? As a side note,
>
I have a major snake phobia so I think I'd shudder w/ heebie jeebies if I
>
ran over a snake! *blech*!!
Thu,
8 Mar 2007:
To:
<bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com>
From:
"Tom Fitzpatrick" <t-cfitz2@comcast.net>
Subject:
Re: Re: Singletrack MINDS
A
couple minor problems with the stunts at St Ed/Bastyr. 1. They were mostly very
poorly built, looked ghetto, and the professional opinion (e.g. the Sugoi dirt
girls) was they were "tib-fib breakers". 2. They were built without
the land owners/managers' permission. The jumps etc. built on Finn Hill Park
attracted the unwelcome attention not only of hikers but King Co parks staff,
who not only removed the jumps but a lot of downed logs that people had been
riding over for 10 years and helped make these trails more fun.
As
I've been flamed for saying before, St Edward State Park/Finn Hill is not
Whistler. Whether or not you like it, the land managers don't want it to become
so, and neither do the walkers. There are positive ways to deal with this
situation, but building illegal stunts isn't one of them.
Tom
Fitzpatrick
-----
Original Message -----
From:
mtbstevo@comcast.net
To:
bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com
Sent:
Thursday, March 08, 2007 9:19 AM
Subject:
Re: Re: Singletrack MINDS
I've
thought there's an irony in the opposition towards building stunts on public lands.
Anything elevated keeps bikes off the ground and cuts down on erosion. I
scratched my head when the one section at Eddies was taken out - it was
suspended above an area prone to erosion. Some might consider it a land use
BMP? But, having worked for government bureaucracy for most of my life, I
understand how sometimes decisions are made for political or liability reasons.
--------------
Original message --------------
From:
<bbtcrides@verizon.net>
Good
find Steve.
Fromme
ROCKS! And, the work done up there is an inspiration for those that do the work
down here. It's definately art and practical necessity in complete symbiosis.
Love it and wish we had more trails like that closer to home.
The
Marin deal still resonates from issues of old. Many in that are hae moved on
and better understand each other's needs. But, as we have found up here, it's a
lot easier to enact laws keeping users out than it is undoing them. Even if
most users have figured out the error of their previous ways.
BBq>From:
Steve Costa <mtbstevo@comcast.net>
>Date:
2007/03/08 Thu AM 09:36:01 CST
>To:
bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com
>Subject:
Re: Singletrack MINDS
>
>I
thought this one was quite good... (can't remember if I already
>posted
it)
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ulyP8bheCg
>
>---
In bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com, KevinA <mtnwuff@...> wrote:
>>
>>
Check out this documentary DVD. The film examines Marin
>>
singletrack access conflicts. I've sent an email to the
>>
producers to see if I can get a copy of the DVD.
>>
>>
http://www.dirtragmag.com/web/news-article.php?ID=872
>>
>>
Kevin
Wed,
7 Feb 2007:
From:
"Brian" <dirtdude21@hotmail.com>
Subject:
Re: Gray Trails and trail advocacy
Trails
have always been developed for the same reason as long as man has been on
earth... necessity.
Lets
face it, we need more trails, much much Much more. I say kudos to pirate trails
and kudos to those bitch about them, maybe after another 10 years of BS our
county and state land managers will finely see that there is a need for more
access for cyclists, but dont hold your breath. We will always be the red
headded bastard step children of the outdoor community... I say build them
where they have a chance to last and away from wet areas, but build them. Make
the complainers, Tom Murdochs and serria club members work to weed them out as
they are descoverd. Maybe they will get tired after a while.
Look
at skate borders for example, they grind and destroy brickwork and store
fronts. After years and years of complaining and relentless, non conforming
skaters, we finely see skate parks poping up all over the place. This group got
exactly what they wanted by doing what they wanted, where they wanted, when
they wanted.
I'm
not saying its cool to destory the environment we wish to enjoy, I think most
of us are environmentalists... Thats the whole point! We want to see more
birds, more trees, more creeks, more views, We just want more. The building of
"gray trails, pirate trails and illegal trails" just goes to show
that the slow turning wheels of politics, talking and environmental impact
studies is not working for some. I know its not working for me, I dont build
pirate or gray trails but I understand them and I'll ride them in a heartbeat.
My
$0.02
Wed,
07 Feb 2007:
To:
bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com
From:
"Ethan" <bikr273@yahoo.com>
List-Unsubscribe:
<mailto:bbtcmembers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com>
Subject:
Re: Gray Trails and trail advocacy
Hmm...
if I had to break down into three groups, and then guess as to
the
percentages of, American trails that were built by various
movements/entities,
I'd have to guess the following:
5%
-- the CCC
20%
-- other government agencies, or at least groups with official
landowner/government
approval
75%
-- gray trails, built by unofficial, average Joes and Janes ....
and
much of that by hunters, trappers, and other explorers, plus of
course
the ancient/native inhabitants of the continent.
(I'd
be very interested to seem to stats on this, if anyone could dig
them
up somewhere.) Regardless tho, I'd definitley agree with what
someone
said earlier in this thread about how "gray trails belong in
gray
areas" -- lands that only have marginal (or temporary)
recreational
access, period.
Anyway,
on to recent events in the Cascade foothills... So Dave,
when
you called the county folks to report the new trail you'd found,
I
really hope you didn't mention that you'd *met* the trail builders,
and
that they were mountain bikers. Cause that would of course be
incongruous
with the overall goal that we all have to not portray
mountain
bikers in a bad light.
And
to all those who seek to "verbally educate" naughty rogue trail
builders
or other people who are doing things you don't approve of,
always
remember the age-old maxim, "It's not what you say, it's how-
you-say-it."
Since
I wasn't there, Dave, I'm not sure what your tone/approach was
in
educating these "evil-doers" (to borrow a term that our esteemed
president
likes to use).
However,
a few years ago, I was at a wintertime work party on the
Preston
Trail and, at one point in the day, a couple of guys came
riding
down the trail, past us. One of the crew leaders said to
them,
in an angry, belligerent tone: "HEY YOU POACHERS, THIS TRAIL IS
CLOSED!!!"
My jaw dropped. I couldn't believe what I'd just
observed.
How does this person, who also happens to be a board
member
and one of the club's top, uh, "advocates", expect to attract
new
members to the club and new trail gnomes to the trailwork
movement...
when [he/she] talks like that? Unbelievable.
[The
Code of the Streets: Whatever you do, don't "rat" on your buddy, even
if he is doing something illegal! Mike]
EE
Wed,
07 Feb 2007:
To:
mwestra2@yahoo.com, bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com
From:
"Thom Iverson" <tiroam@hotmail.com>
List-Unsubscribe:
<mailto:bbtcmembers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com>
Subject:
Re: Grey Trails
This
is a point I DEFINITELY agree with!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
People
slapping down SHODDY gray trail and then walking away without ANY
followup
maintenance DOES get me torqued off. THAT gives a bad image for
mtn
biking.
IMHO
[In
other words, illegal trail building is okay, but SHODDY illegal trailbuilding
gives mountain bikers a bad name! Mike]
Thom
I
Tue,
6 Feb 2007:
To:
<bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com>
From:
"Maarten van Dantzich" <mvd@thinkling.com>
List-Subscribe:
<mailto:bbtcmembers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com>
Subject:
RE: Op-Ed on gray trails vs official trails
There's
nothing like a false black vs white choice to get everyone stirred
up.
But
let's talk about gray trails for a moment.
-
Rumor has it Lake Sawyer is likely to get developed in the next 10 years.
-
A freeway through Mukilteo/Japanese Gulch has been proposed.
-
Paradise used to be gray. It could've been sold to someone who developed
it
into housing. Instead it went into public ownership and we have to fight
for
it, but we have a decent chance of getting it re-opened.
-
Part of Griffin has been sold off and will be developed.
-
The edges of Tokul have residential zoning and will be sold off. Will we
lose
most of the current access routes?
-
Tolt is for sale. It could be sold and closed.
Where
are you going to ride then?
Just
move on and build gray trail somewhere else?
Let's
face it. An official trail on public land is always better than a gray
trail
because it's not going to go away at random whim. The more we build
relationships
and stand up for ourselves, the more secure those trails are.
We're
getting better at maintaining access to public trails. We got the
Middle
Fork re-opened. Grand Ridge will have official trails open to bikes.
We're
working with King County on agreements for new trails in two places.
This
stuff happens because the BBTC is seen as a serious partner. When
people
see that we can tackle something big like Colonnade, other new
opportunities
will open up.
Thing
is, when we do get agreements to legalize use and build new trails,
then
it's time to be mature and play by the rules. Things move slower that
way,
but the trails stay around longer. It also makes sense to talk to other
mountain
bikers to make sure they understand what the stakes are.
Building
gray trails is a sticky topic for BBTC as an organization. People
want
to do it, and when it doesn't tick off the land owner, it's obviously a
win
for people who want to ride. At the same time, the club can't actively
support
gray trail building simply because it's illicit, and because it
would
ruin our chances of being taken seriously by land managers.
Either
way, gray trails belong in gray areas, not in places where we want to
keep
our access to official trails.
As
for building jumps--there are some at Colonnade, did you know? We're
happy
to build them anywhere we can get land manager permission to do so.
Terry,
just as your email does not represent the club, neither does Dave's.
Everyone's
got their opinions, but don't confuse individual members with the
club.
/Maarten.
(I'm
a board member but am speaking on personal account--and I happily ride
gray
trails.)
Mon,
15 Jan 2007:
From:
"Jim Preston" <lists@conceptuate.com>
To:
"'ROMP'" <romp@ns.live555.com>
Subject:
Re: [ROMP] Humboldt
List-Subscribe:
<http://lists.live555.com/mailman/listinfo/romp>,
<mailto:romp-request@lists.live555.com?subject=subscribe>
Kari,
Logging
can be environmentally just fine and often is. Some people equate
aesthetic
loss, cut trees, with environmental loss. They are not
necessarily
the same. I happen to prefer the clear-cuts because there is a
much
more active wildlife community there than the old forests. We've
suppressed
forest fires but we have clear-cuts to somewhat balance our
intervention.
Not quite the same but it helps.
Also,
ROMP is not an environmentalist organization and we have taken stands
against
wilderness designations so we could ride the trails. Working with
logging
companies to expand available trails will not harm the environment
for
the most part. There are vastly bigger environmental issues to get
excited
about.
I
realize that "logging" is a dirty word for some people. I find
that this
view
is for the most part unfair and unfounded.
No
harm in bringing the topic up for discussion though.
-
jim
-----Original
Message-----
From:
Kari Olson [mailto:karijolson@yahoo.com]
Sent:
Monday, January 15, 2007 5:52 PM
To:
Jim Preston; 'ROMP'
Subject:
Re: [ROMP] Humboldt
Depending
on the logging ventures, this position may be against overall
environmental
goals and may hurt ROMP's pro-environment stand, mission
statement,
and our claims that mountain bike riders are pro-environment.
Yea,
maybe Mtb may get a few more trails to ride, but what is the cost on
credibility
in the long run with regard to ROMP's pro-environment stand.
food
for thought.
Kari
---
Jim Preston <lists@conceptuate.com> wrote:
>
Tim, you have a big "value proposition" to offer the logging
>
companies.
>
They need political allies and bike riders can be allies against
>
wilderness and tree-huggers. If riders have a network of trails on
>
logging company property they are more likely to defend the logging
>
companies along with the trails. Also, I find that cut areas are very
>
good for riding because they offer views and aren't claustrophobic
>
like dense forest.
>
>
The companies rightfully fear that if they invite the public to use
>
the land that the public will want to turn it into park. So them that
>
the opposite is true for MTB'ers. Maybe you can find examples in B.C.
>
or the Western US where bikes and logging companies are in love.
>
>
Hug a logger.
>
>
- jim
>
>
-----Original Message-----
>
From: romp-bounces@ns.live555.com
>
[mailto:romp-bounces@ns.live555.com] On Behalf Of Timothy Daniels
>
Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 6:35 AM
>
To: ROMP
>
Subject: Re: [ROMP] property owner liability
>
>
I knew there was a reason I kept touch with ROMP's messages. This is
>
by far the most useful information I've gotten here yet.
>
Here in Humboldt, an
>
obscene amount of the surrounding land is privately owned by the
>
timber companies Green Diamond/Simpson and Pacific Lumber.
>
Neither of which are
>
very gracious about permitting us to ride there.
>
One of them is actually
>
downright ornery about it.
>
>
Thank you.
>
>
Tim