Thu, 30 Dec 1999:
Subject: Re: Utah WSA proposal

I don't mind if someone wants to introduce restrictions on land use in

the name of preservation.

I wish cyclists weren't included in the restrictions; we are capable of

using the land gently. Unfortunately, we often don't. Impacts around

Moab demonstrate quite clearly that cyclists are not much better at

getting the "Tread Lightly" message than motorzied users.

If there is an undiscovered "prime riding area" out there in Utah, it's

best left that way. Any place that becomes another Moab will be trashed

by cyclists--who usually show up in overpowered, gas-guzzling SUVs,

which they often drive in as far as mechanically possilbe.

The desert looks indestructible; it is not. Impacts that would vanish

in a month in a wet climate last for decades here. Sometimes their

effects are permanent.

Wilderness advocates are not evil.

Ron Georg


Thu, 30 Dec 1999:

Along with my forest destroying mountain bike I also own an off road 454 GMC 4x4, a snowmobile, a 2 stoke dirt bike and one extra large chain saw (no muffler) . I also fish and hunt. Just thought I would make you day


Tue, 28 Dec 1999:

I suppose helmetless riders do have a potential effect on access.

I guess too many years of riding on BLM land have left me with a

wild-west attitude; people die on their bikes around here (although 1999

was a safe and happy year after last season's two deaths on Moab's

Portal Trail), and we still get to ride the trails.


Sat, 25 Dec 1999 18:50:30 -0600, Mikel Wyatt <> wrote:

.Vandeman you are a friggin prick!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Thu, 23 Dec 1999:

Subject: Re: National Forest - KEEP OUT

aah well, its a good job i dont give a flying fuck what mr clinton has to

say, he has no control over me what so ever :-)


Wed, 22 Dec 1999:

I think there are two paths to take:

1) In the early 80s the definition of Wilderness was changed from the

original "motorized use" to the current "mechanized use." It was THIS

change that eliminated our activity from Wilderness areas. We should lobby

for a designation for Roadless Areas that provides for protection without

limitting mechanized access.

2) Lobby for a change in the Wilderness Act back to the original language.


Mon, 20 Dec 1999:

Mountain biking is extremely destructive to trails, and does have

significant impact on some types of plant and animal life.




We are 5 billion years away from our sun becoming a red giant and

taking our puny planet out of existence forever. We are 1,000 years

away from a life-extinguishing asteroid impact. We are 100 years away

from a major geothermal catacylsm in the Sierras that will spread ash

over 2/3 of the North American continent. We are 75 years away from

exhaustion of our fossil fuels. We are 10 years away from irritated

space aliens kicking our ass for polluting deep space with broadcasts

like "Felicity."




Wed, 01 Dec 1999:

Fuck you you hypocritical fanatic. I suppose you levitate when you walk, thus not "killing" any microorganisms. Right Buddy, go mentally masturbate yourself.


Fri, 10 Dec 1999:

you are the right man!! ... I WANT FUN... Trails are there to be damaged

( = used )


Fri, 10 Dec 1999:

I think a veteran bicyclist needs to respond to all this verbal abuse. This

newsgroup "should" be for the mountain bike rider. Why do so many people

persist in writing messages about the destruction of trails.


Go to trail.preservation.freak newsgroup or something.


I want to read about riding, components, and stories here. I do not want to

be insulted because I ride on dirt trails. By the way, I know I am a

destructive to wildlife, especially when I am riding at night and scare deer

onto the road and they get hit. This happened just last week. Plus I also

ride illegally on equestrian trails. Do you think I am going to stop riding



Tue, 7 Dec 1999:

It's pointless to deny that trails cause erosion, promote invasive

plant intrusion, increase human presence in back country, etc, and that human

trail use can elevate stress levels in nearby wildlife, increase the

emergency response load for public agencies as well as the maintenance load.


Mon, 6 Dec 1999:

I ride in any weather, stuff it if you dont like it.

Thu, 18 Nov 1999:

Subject: Wildlife Need Habitat

I guess humans should stop reproducing, pitch tents, and tip toe around so

as to not destroy one organism ! Even better, we should all just commit

suicide so that wildlife will rule the earth. You need to get off that

Ph.D. of yours and get a life ! I'm going mountain biking this Saturday,

and there's not a damn thing you can do about it, Mr. Ph.D!

Mon, 25 Oct 1999:

Subject: Illegal Trailbuilding

Dear ROMP Leadership,

I just received my November newsletter and want to respond to the article

by the President regarding illegal trailbuilding.

I request that the ROMP leadership take a public stance against illegal


Of course ROMP as an organization cannot endorse illegal trailbuilding and

must therefore take a position against it. However, as a ROMP member, I do

not want an organization I support actively going against those individuals

in the mountain biking community who may have a difference of opinion on

the matter. If I see ROMP taking active action opposing illegal

trailbuilding, I will cease membership in the organization. I am sure other

will do the same, thus causing an unnecessary rift in an already non-active


When I think of ROMP and my membership in it, I first think of advocacy for

new mountain biking access (ORGANIZED). Secondarily, I think of other

aspects of the organization such as participating in trail maintenance and

trail education stations (RESPONSIBLE). I support that aspect of being

"Responsible", but I do not support any of the following:

- headhunting

- naturalizing of existing trail (even if built illegally)

- assisting in the search and identification of illegal trails

- expenditure of funds to discourage illegal trailbuilding

Again, to me, ROMP is about access not enforcement. Please don't make me

choose to ROMP or not to ROMP.

Date: October 21, 1999:

Since the list has been so quite for a couple of weeks I decided

to tell a bike story.

3-4 weeks ago I was taking my customary noon time ride and was

out on the Indian Creek bike path south of Corporate Woods.

I was clipping along around 15 mph having a good day, when

suddenly I saw a brown furry shape moving in the grass

next to the path about 5 feet ahead of me. It looked to be

a squirrel.

I started to slow when I saw it moving into the path. Then

the squirrel accelerated and it was on course with my front

wheel. I hardly had any time to react -- I continued to slow

and visions of a mangled squirrel in my font wheel and a sudden

endo flashed though my brain.

>From the time I saw the squirrel moving to the acceleration towards

the wheel a little over 1 second had transpired.

Just as it seemed the squirrel/spoke collision was happening the

brown furry squirrel was on the opposite side of the path.

I looked back with bewilderment. The squirrel was running in to the

brush on the opposite side, chattering loudly and was apparently

not hurt.

The only conclusion that made sense was that the squirrel ran

BETWEEN the front and the back wheel, right under the spinning

crank arms and the bottom bracket -- while the bike was moving

at 13-15 miles an hour!

I rode on, thankfully neither I or the squirrel was hurt.

I was amazed that the squirrel did that stunt.

"Potential Squirrel Killer"

Date: 1999/09/06

We rode through many creeks along the way. We rode through some more creeks. After passing under a tourist

filled chairlift, the trail climbs like a screaming warthog to our destination. We GUed and drank. I looked up and saw

a Nikon strapped family running aimlessly down a hill. "What are they doing?", Randy marveled. I said that they had

no idea what they were doing, and turned my bike around.

I looked down the hill and sighed. Time to hang on. I let the bike go, and was unsteady as usual at the beginning.

In no time I was moving fast and secure. I rode until the trail went up. I had passed a few people, but I hardly had to

slow down. They had either seen, or heard me coming in advance, and jumped off of the trail.

's ears were wet. He looked like a crazed character out of a bad horror movie. I don't know if I could call it a

smile. All he said was, "Now that was worth a flight from California". I laughed, we had so much more to go and it

only got better.

I hit the creek and hammered granny up the other side. I up-shifted to middle ring, and plowed headlong into the rock

garden. I up-shifted once again, and then twice. I glanced ahead and saw two people walking. I crushed on the

pedals and hit every rock. I gave out a few war cries, and blasted forth. The two riders had pulled aside and I hardly

saw them as I passed. One of them told as he passed them, "You have got a lot of riding to do to catch that


The trail is getting more familiar now. I am starting to push the limits. I scream back to about the turns to

come. I take a few breaths and flick the bike into the turns. Right,

left...rig..left...riigghhtt....down..... 30...35....40...No looker air if you want it. Rocky landing, and more speed into a

steeper, sloping right. Gotta watch the tire slippage here. 2.25 required for hair-splitting speed. Hit the brakes hard,

leave the bike in top gear, negotiate the wooden cattle gate, and jump on for the rest. Speed builds fast into more

crazy switchbacks.

The trail is tight with aspen trees, but the roots must be jumped at speed. One after the other. It is very important to

look ahead and keep the bike landing straight. More switchbacks. We never stop. We cleared the easy tree drop

one, two, three. The boyz were riding well. I was happy the trail was hiker free. Our speed would have scared Mike

Tyson and/or Janet Reno. (?)

I came to the sloping launch down into the gully of the Castle Creek run-off. I had already shifted up. I glanced up,

and upon seeing not a soul on the trail below, I blasted down the slope and pedaled hard. All at once, both my

shoes got jolted out of the pedals. I had checked a nice size rock with the right pedal. I was lucky. Good thing it

did not happen on the grazing turn above.

I lost some speed but clipped back in. The trail is somewhat level here, but up. After 30 miles and thousands of feet

of elevation gain, it just seems right to go all out at the end. I approached the best jump on the trail, and spied a

woman on a bike at it's apex. I could already smell her perfume. I thought about being a bear or a gorilla. That

woman is the first one I would eat, or maul, or beat around like a toy. It just stands to reason. I did not slow, and we

jumped one after the other, oblivious to her paralytic fear. I wondered what the mountain lion thought of paralytic

fear. Common courtesy is one thing, but I have my lines of sanity. We passed Mr. Homely without slowing. He was

happy and smiling.

Every step closer to the finish, I gained energy. I never felt bad, but now I felt better. We crossed the bridge and

pedaled up the wide trail to the golf course.

Miles: many

Altitude gain: thousands

Hours: lots

Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999:

Subject: Re: Is There Such A Thing As Responsible Mountain Biking???

> > What I am having trouble understanding is your contempt for

> cyclists.


> I don't have contempt for people, and certainly nof for cyclists! I

> have contempt for certain BEHAVIOR, such as destroying wildlife and

> wildlife habitat.

How can a mountainbiker destroy wildlife more than a hiker does when

they use the same trails? Ever tried to ride a bike straight THROUGH a

forest? Impossible. You shouldn't talk abozt something you not tried

yourself! Mountainbikers have to stay on trails because that's the only

way to ride a bike in the woods!

> I

> >believe it's a friendly & healthy alternative to other modes of

> >transportation and recreation.


> Yes, IF it is a replacement for use of a motor vehicle. But off-road,

> biking is a replacement for HIKING, and thus is a big step backwards.

Who puts you in the position to judge that? What you think about

equestrians by the way?


> > Aren't there bigger evils out there than a handful of uneducated,

> >unresponsible mtn. bikers? Like maybe oil companies, the forestry

> industry,

> >car manufacturers, etc just to name a few.


> Of course. But there are millions of mountain bikers, so they are a

> very significant threat to wildlife. There are plenty of people

> working on those other issues. I choose to address mountain biking

> because hardly anyone else is doing so, and because most people have

> the mistaken belief that bikes are used only for good.

hmm.... show me a study that shows mountainbiking destroys environment

and wildlife more than hiking does... otherwise you are just talking

about YOUR opinion. It is ok when you dislike mountainbiking. But then

say just it and don't blame us for things we just don't do.

I know there has been a study here in germany that had the result that

mountainbiking is NOT a bigger threat than hiking.

> > I believe it is totally possible for a mtn biker to ride

> responsibly and

> >share the trail in a way that everyone can enjoy.


> By "everyone", you are obviously excluding wildlife and non-bikers.

> Having to share a narrow trail with speeding mountain bikers, or even

> slow mountain bikers, is no fun. I go to parks to GET AWAY FROM

> machinery and other aspects of city life!!!

hmm.... you know.. I never caused any problems to hikers as far as I

know... because when I see a hiker I will sure brake down to a

reasonable speed. But I came in to very dangerous situations because

hikers taking their dogs into the woods and not having them with a lash.

Although it is LAW. But nobody of those hikers with dogs seem to care

about the laws. And I can tell you most of the bikers do care for

laws... because they know they have a bad reputation (For absolutley no

reason!). Now how is the threat for whom??

> You make it sound like

> >every cyclist has no regard for any other trail user.


> Many don't. But even if they do, it doesn't change the fact that they

> destroy the experience of nature that wildlife and hikers are

> expecting.

You know... you sound like it is YOUR nature und wildlife.. and only the

way you like to experience it is the right way. But you are not alone on

this planet and different people have different views of things... and

you have to get along with it.

> You obviously have

> >never met me on a trail before. I'm am always polite, and always

> yield the

> >trail to other users. I think we can all use the trail if we just

> have a

> >little respect for each other.


> Not when you destroy the trail and crush or scare away wildlife. There

> is no such thing as responsible off-road biking. It is irresonsible by

> its very nature!

Wow..... how does a bike tire destroy the trail.... it is not a fucking

motorcylce... You are very narrow minded by YOUR nature!

> > Don't you think maybe you could be more constructive by

> encouraging

> >people to ride responsibly, and by educating people about

> >trail/environmental ethics?


> That is exactly what I AM doing! I expect bicyclists to stick to paved

> roads, where they belong, and where they won't do much harm.

Who says we belong there? You? Who are you to say that?.... I mean on

the other hand I could say, stay in the city hikers!... you don't belong

in the woods...

You know, here in germany it is legal for everybody at a certain time to

collect mushrooms in the woods. At that time, all those "woldlife -

loving" hikers leave the trails, go "though" the woods, damaging

everything just to get some stupid mushrooms. Most of you hikers only

claim to protect the nature as a means to keep other people away from

the woods.

> If you just rant on about how evil a group of

> >people are,


> You are fantasizing. I have never said any such thing.

sure you said that. We are a threat to nature and wildlife, we destroy

the trails and we annoy hikers.... that's what you said, right?

> do you think they will listen to you or change? Unlikely. They

> >will just be offended, and have that much more resentment for any

> advice or

> >information you may have to offer, no matter how valid it may be.

> > I find it unfortunate that someone as dedicated and educated as

> yourself

> >lacks the social skills to share the knowledge and educate others in

> your

> >area of expertise.


> I do it all the time. But mountain bikers are not open to information

> about the harm they are doing.

You really are very narrow minded. Your menatality seems to be "I am

right, you are wrong".... but with that nobody will listen to you....

> I find it horrifying to hear of people "booby trapping"

> >trails and things like this. (Are you so arrogant that YOUR way is

> the

> >correct way, that you will stoop to vigilante justice to stop anyone

> who

> >doesn't conform to your beliefs?)


> You aren't talking about me. You must be thinking about someone else.

I hope you are not one of these persons... but from what you said.. or

better.. from the attitude you seem to have I could imagine you are one

of them. Atleast people that talk like you encourage others by saying

"Mountainbikers are a threat to wildlife".. and there are radicals that

think it is ok to hurt a human being to "protect" nature... but the

problem is, they are attacking the wrong persons...

> Mr. Vandeman, your postings shock and

> >alarm me,


> These days, someone who tells the truth is rare, huh?

Is it the truth? I don't think so.. it is something you thought about in

your small narrow minded brain.... It is your opinion, but you try to

make it SOUND like the truth. It is ok if YOU personally don't like

mountainbikers... but you will have to live with them. And if you don't

like them, say it. Don't blame us for things we just are not responsible

of. At least not more responsible than all the other people enjoying

nature, including the hikers.

> and I sincerely hope that in the future you can channel your

> >efforts into something constructive and beneficial to EVERYONE.


> Banning off-road biking IS beneficial to everyone. Especially

> wildlife.

Banning anything never is good.. because people won't stop doing it...

and will do it where it is illegal and really damaging to nature.. is

that what you want? an mountainbike underground scene?... as long as we

are allowed to use the "official" trails, there is no need to find or

even build other trails....

Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 22:11:38 -0700


Someone left your diatribe about mountain bikes pinned to my door,

probably as a joke. I am suprised that you could get a Ph.D with such

poor writing skills and such a lack of scientific logical thought.

I don't have the time or care enough to specify my arguments with

your conclusions, but let me say that I think you are really obsessed

with your antisocial, finger-pointing, political views without even

seeing what the real problem is.

The problem is not that people want to dominate nature. I have never

heard another person ever express that desire, it is a total 19th

century concept. The problem is simply this: too many people. People

have to go somewhere and do something. Six billion of them use a lot of

resources. Only reducing the population of the planet can solve most of

the major problems, including yours and others like resource

availability and neighborhood crowding. Less people puts less pressure

on all commodities and resources. The oceans are not overfished because

some Republican lawmaker wants to sell the ocean to Standard Oil, it is

because there are so many hungry people all over the world and they

provide a market for fish. No one will catch those fish if there is no

one to buy them. If you want to preserve your beloved planet, convince

everybody you personally know not to reproduce. Do not attempt to stop

them from copulating, just conceiving and/or delivering. Living simply

sounds cute and cuddly, but 30 billion people living simply and doing

tai chi instead of snowmobiling and jet skiing is still going to be a

crowded and miserable place. Every inch of the land will be covered, by

necessity, not choice. Reducing the population does not necessarily

cause better behavior among the remaining population, so since human

beings are basically assholes, I would still expect behavioral problems,

but with less people, it would be easier for people like you to get away

from the glut.

Do not expect to win this fight, you cannot put an end to outdoor

fun. I surf and mountain bike almost every day and will continue to do

so no matter what you consider politcally necessary because I want to be

strong and healthy. I will be riding very fast. Look out and keep your

ears open. Horses cause much more erosion on trails than mountain bikes,

but I still love horses. I don't ride them, but what gives a human like

you the right to decide where a horse and his human slave should go for

a walk. Humans and horses and dogs are part of nature. The planet is

evolving. You can do nothing to turn back the clock and the world will

be an unimaginably complicated and different place after we are gone.

Species always come and go and the big ball of matter that is the earth

does not care if people or spotted owls survive. It is likely that there

will be eons after ours, perhaps very different. You have such a limited

idea of what is natural and even possible that you overlook the largest

facts and whimper about some silly side issue. The world is changing,

don't expect is to go back to what we remember as children, and most

people do not agree with you on these issues or what to do about them.

You should try surfing sometime, that will show you how

insignificant you are to the earth, much less the universe. Almost

drowning time after time and finally getting to ride on a giant wall of

water teaches you how transitory life is and how you can go from the top

to the bottom or die in no time. Lighten up and get a bike, go tear up

some poison oak and non native species like people from back east!

Leaving pieces of yourself on the rocks after crashing feeds the insects

and then larger animals. Go get eaten by wild pigs if you really want to

do something positve for nature. Many species love the taste of

vegetarians. Just don't try to tell me where and when I ride or surf. I

will do what I want, where I want; ignoring laws, rules, rangers or you

and your kind. Live with it. You cannot stop me, for I am a free human

being, and I only can decide my own ecological policy. Since I don't

wear a helmet you may feel that I may also become food for the pigs, yet

I am not afraid. But sorry, I win and you lose. I'm riding tomorrow

unless the surf gets bigger. And the next day. I will drive my car even

though I live walking distance to the beach, just for you. You cannot

stop me, but show me a better way by the way you live, not by some

wandering, illogical intenet piece.

Good luck in telling the rest of us what we may and may not do.


September 07, 1999:

Posted by Dave K:

In Reply to: POACH SINGLETRACK EVERYWHERE posted by Brew on September 07, 1999 at 15:03:43:

You ride trails that you KNOW you aren't supposed to be on and the ones that you are allowed will be closed to bikers as well. It's not just about you're little world

and whether you can afford the $100 ticket. So for the benefit of the other riders in your area, if you are gonna poach the trail, do it at nite or early in the morning.

Yes I have poached some trails. Mostly at nite in November.


September 07, 1999:

Posted by Brew

In Reply to: As a reformed poacher... posted by Magic Matt on September 07, 1999 at 14:31:28:

First of all, even though the trail is closed, its very rarely used by anyone other than riders. Yeah, the bottom mile or so gets its fair share of hikers, but up top?

Forget about it. And trail enforcement here is quite weak, if nonexistent.

You "law and order" types make me laugh. I bet you call the cops whenever you see kids skateboarding in your favorite strip mall's parking lot.

The way I see it, Ive poached that trail over 20 times. Assuming a $100 ticket if it ever comes down to that, thats $5 per ride. Cheaper and much more entertaining

than a movie.


September 07, 1999:

Posted by Joe

In Reply to: As a reformed poacher... posted by Magic Matt on September 07, 1999 at 14:31:28:

A couple weeks ago my roommate, a formerly aggressive poacher, was caught on some forbidden singletrack he had ridden many times and nary seen a hiker. The

ranger wrote a ticket, and promised something in the mail. Last Thurs. BOOM $270 ticket in the mail. Don't do the crime if you can't do the time, but $270 is a bit

ridiculous for a 1st offense. I rarely poach, but there is a time and most definately the places.-namely Grizzly Peak above Bizerkley.


September 07, 1999:

Posted by Zaphod

In Reply to: As a reformed poacher... posted by Magic Matt on September 07, 1999 at 14:31:28:

The reasons for the trail closure is because of selfish hiker/equestrians and has little to do with trail erosion or any rational reason. However, it is rather unwise to ride

illegal trails on weekends where hikers are frequently present.

I won't say which illegal trails I ride ALL THE TIME on weekends but I will say that I've only once seen a group of hikers and they were kickin' back locals who

had only good mojo and friendly greetings for us.

No matter what trails you do ride, legal, illegal, singletrack, fireroad, *always* ride with respect to hikers. I always make special effort not to startle hikers and greet

them with a friendly word as I pass by.

Clearly I'm preaching to the choir here but the differences in erosion/wear between the user groups is, in the big picture, immateral. The key damage to the

environment is the actual trail cutting itself. The rest is just so small. Looking at the even bigger picture, all the trails created all over the world adds up to less damage

than a single strip mall. If all the user groups aligned their energies there would be more trails for all of us.


September 08, 1999:

Posted by Grommit

In Reply to: As a reformed poacher... posted by Magic Matt on September 07, 1999 at 14:31:28:

Seems to me that some of you are too ready to roll over and play dead on this issue. If the reasons for trail closure are weak, then get organised. Individuals will

always get caught and booked, but how about 200 riders on a daylight continuous trespass! You may all get booked but it would certainly make the local papers

and give a chance to open a debate.

It took thousands of ordinary walkers on mass trespasses in England before access rights were won to huge areas of the country. They called it 'de-facto access' -

sounds better than 'poaching' which implies you think you are doing something wrong. It has worked before, it could work again...


September 07, 1999:

Posted by david

In Reply to: Poachers: What do you say?? posted by Brew on September 07, 1999 at 13:46:42:

yeah i poached this hiking trail last week. when i came acrros hikers that cared i just told them i made a wrong turn and asked how to get bakc to the bike trail, they

were usually helpful


September 07, 1999:

Posted by Magic Matt

In Reply to: Poachers: What do you say?? posted by Brew on September 07, 1999 at 13:46:42:

I'd say the idea was pretty dumb. Even at the height of my poaching, I almost always poached at night or very early in the morning. And NEVER on a holiday

weekend. Why do it? You know you're being an a$$hole, and you're doing it in front of a crowd - people that may influence closure of other trails. And for what?

The thrill of riding a particular trail? *IS* the ride really worth the risk?


September 07, 1999:

Posted by Brew

last weekend, some pals and I were feeling a little brazen and decided to ride a trail thats technically closed to bikes. Yeah, it wasnt the smartest thing to do on a

holiday weekend.

Anyway, we encountered the inevitable hikers on the bottom third of the descent. Most were cool (as are we -- we dismount and look sheepish) but some said

"Hey, dont you know the trail is closed?" or something to that effect.

My one pal uttered the traditional lame, untrue response "We didnt see any sign at the top," but near the bottom another pal said:

"Yes, we know its illegal, but the ride is worth the risk."

I thot that was an excellent response, as well as the truth. I was wondering what other responses riders have given.