Sun, 30 Dec 2001:

From: Joel Green <mtb_biker2000@yahoo.com>

Subject: Finn Hill 'ride report'

To: bbtc <bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com>

Mailing-List: list bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com; contact bbtcmembers-owner@yahoogroups.com

I couldn't resist and did a spin through the 'closed' Finn Hill trails today. From what I could tell by the fresh tire tracks, there has been considerable riding going on there this week and in fact I came upon more mountain bikers using the park today than I ever have in a single outing before. Did my part to help out the financially strapped county and drove back later to grab the bag of trash that has been sitting by the sign.

Joel Green

Web Site: www.mountainmojo.com

Thu, 27 Dec 2001:

From: michaeldong <michaeld@electroimpact.com>

Subject: Finn Hill Closure Sign

[me: Mountain bikers think "Park Closed" means "Come on in!"!]

I rode there today for the first time in months. I read the sign

very carefully and nowhere on it did it say anything about not using

the trails. The title was "Park Closed" and it mentioned closure

for January, February, November, and December (in that order). It

almost seemed to be meant for one of the King County Parks with

bathrooms, garbage cans, ballfields, etc..

Michael

Thu, 27 Dec 2001:

From: mtb_biker2000 <mtb_biker2000@yahoo.com>

Subject: trail closure!

The King County Parks web site has a notice about many park closures.

[me: Note that he neglects to mention that mountain biking greatly increases park maintenance costs (for enforcement and trail maintenance). He also repeats the mountain bikers' favorite lie that bike bans "exclude them": "I see no reason to shut us out of these trails". "I say a little civil disobediance is warrented in this case". Where is the injustice, to justify this law-breaking???]

http://www.metrokc.gov/parks/news/news1.htm

There are closed signs at the entrances of the Big Finn Hill trails.

I have not seen signs posted at the athletic fields and the gates

have been open. Could it be that the soccer playing community has

more political pull then us mountain bikers? I don't see any cost

savings gained from closing these trails as I have never seen any

park employee activity in the area in the two years that I have been

riding there. I have ridden the trails several times in the past

week and have come across several other riders and lots of hikers

all out enjoying the good weather and their park. While I applaud

the counties efforts to get it's budget under control I see no

reason to shut us out of these trails. This park has been bought and

paid for and there is no reason why the tax paying public can't be

trusted to use the trails unsupervised. I'm not usually one to

condone breaking the rules, but I say a little civil disobediance is

warrented in this case.

Joel

www.mountainmojo.com

Fri, 21 Dec 2001:

From: "MatthewH" <MatthewH@prism.co.za>

Newsgroups: alt.mountain-bike

Ok, mountain biking is destructive to nature...

I will STILL mountain bike even though I know this because I am

too selfish to stop.. happy now?

Right, now we've both stated our cases, what's the next step

forward? How do we reach a COMPROMISE?

Wed, 19 Dec 2001:

From: Jeff Spahn <jspahn@spahnandrose.com>

Subject: Meeting

Hey Mike-

You should be careful. You have no idea who the people you are pissing off are. Some time a guy you piss off could come at you and break your knee caps with a bat. Not that I am inclined to do such a thing or would encourage senseless violence like that, but then again, I wouldn't cry if someone did it the likes of you. There are lots of crazy people in the world and you might just provoke one of them with your asinine shotgun approach to environmentalism and mountain bikes. Do your health a favour, quit trolling the News Groups.

If you would like, I can send you our customer service number and you can call and complain about my personal use of company email. They would get a chuckle out of it.

By the way, how's the garbage pickup in Berkley? Your cans getting emptied okay? Are those homeless people you see on the street watching you. Ever notice how the same one's look at you different?

disclaimer - nothing in this email construes a threat to your person. It is merely an observation about the unknown nature of unbalanced people in the world and how they could react to your ranting.

Wed, 19 Dec 2001:

From: "Jeffrey Spahn \(Corporate Internet Mail\)" <jspahn@spahnandrose.com>

Subject: Re: Some very interesting facts about Mike Vandeman

Newsgroups: alt.mountain-bike

Some day he might provoke the wrong person and end up with a Louisville

Slugger sandwich for lunch.

Wonder if I sent him an email if he would call our company? Since it's my

family's company and we all like mountain biking and 4 wheeling would anyone

care.

If I get a good rise out of him (off the NG of course) I will surely share

the gorey details. with those who are interested.

I can see it now, Mikey fuming at his keyboard, foam coming out of the

corners of his mouth, teeth knashing. Not that this would make him go away,

but then, you have to stir the pot every now and again.

Tue, 18 Dec 2001:

From: Matthew Wilson-Vogler <matthew_wv@hotmail.com>

When it comes down to it I am still going to Mountain Bike on and off road, and so will my club and all my friends. It is like saying that no one should go swimming in the sea because it pollutes the water and hurts the sea creatures.

Sat, 15 Dec 2001:

From: punk <punkmtbiker@nofx.com>

fuck you what the hell are you going do with me. If i want to ride around gods green earth i'll do it and you better not get in my fuckin way or i'll run your ass over and if my tire marks. SO fuck off and go live your life and let us live ours. Do you get paid to be a fuckin taliban bastard or do you just think your right like the rest of your fuckin Nazi friends.

Thu, 13 Dec 2001:

From: punk <punkmtbiker@nofx.com>

Subject: wass up?

you must be some kinda of fuckin idiot comin into our club saying that we cant mt bike. What kinda of a club is it? Its for HARDCORE MT BIKERS not little pussys who ride down the fuckin road. Ok? So next time you get a bif fuckin thought like that shove it directly up your fat ass. So who the hell gave you a P.H.D. I thought they only give that to smart people, oh ya your a doctor right. One of those doctors who sit and listen to peoples problems and think that they can help when all you are is just a big fuck up yourself. You know what you should do, you should go join the fuckin talliban you communist ass hole. You know what they do in Afganistan, they act just like you trying to order every one around and tell them what they can and cant do. Well you know what, I'll ride my 2.5 inch tire right over your fuckin face if i ever see you. oh did i hear that you livve in sanfrancisco? Have ever ridden a mountian bike you fuckin fagget. Why dont you write me back and tell me tha!

t i'm being mean and that your going to go cry. YOUR ANOTHER OSAMA

By the way I'm only 15 so go FUCK YOURSELF

Wed, 12 Dec 2001:

From: DHDoug <dnknewell@msn.com>

Subject: Re: The Effects of Mountain Biking on Wildlife and People

To: "Hardcore Mt. Biking" <HardcoreMtBiking@communities.msn.com>

Dear Michael J Vandeman, PH.d.:

I can see that you have done plenty of research on the subject of how destructive certain activities are for the natural habitat and how it existed for millions of years. I personally have done some damage to the environment myself over the years, and in someone like your's eyes, I may be eventually damned to hell for an eternity of doing nothing but riding on pavement.

But your commentary on the website made me realize that people like you are even worse than people like me. You sit there and argue that riding on pavement trails is what mountain bikes should be relegated to. Well, think about this for a little while. Do you really think that bulldozing a strip of land, tearing up all the natural vegetation and then placing a strip of tar coated gravel is really going to HELP the environment??? I'm not too sure if you have ever seen the work that takes place to create a paved trail for people who are not willing to step off the beaten path to enjoy what nature really has to offer.

People like you should really examine what good they are actually doing for the world, and what your motives really are. If I were to think the whole situation through with a clear mind, wouldn't you find it a little more eco-friendly to just do away with all asphalt roads, and all automobiles. I'm pretty sure that you drive a very nice vehicle to and from work every day, and never give a single thought to the fact of what the environment is actually going through just so you could get home just a little faster every evening to get home to your boring life of oppressing people other than yourself.

How about this postulate, how about you actually study the amount of natural vegetation and wildlife habitat that has been destroyed in the last 100 years since the automobile has been around, and get back to me on that one. I want the report summarized in triplicate, and just for kicks, how about you prepare a presentation on Microsoft's PowerPoint that lasts for approximately 2 hours on how you theorize to fix all the damage done by paving strips of ground across the world just so people like you can stay seated on their fat, lazy asses and zip around the globe.

As soon as you come up with a paper, and it should be a big one, jam it straight up your rectum, and see how it really feels to have someone who really knows nothing about you or your world tell you what you should really be doing.

Next time, think about what you are doing, and don't try to preach before you actually read through the bible beforehand.

Douglas C. Newell, DH MTBR, BA,

Thu, 06 Dec 2001:

From: Aaron Teasdale <digaaron@yahoo.com>

Subject: RE: Wildlife and trails

While it's true that we're often in and out of areas more quickly than other trail users, it's also true that we cover more ground. Our greater reach can translate to greater impact on anthropophobic species like Grizzly Bears and Lynx. I'm not actually sure if anthropophobic is a word, but it seems like it should be.

Aaron

Sun, 21 Oct 2001:

From: John Morgan <johnm-ii@home.com>

Subject: What I believe

Hi Mike!

I am not replying to be inflamitory, to argue a point, or to convince you of

anything in any way, shape, or form. I have read nearly all the material on

your website and your many lengthy papers and I am familiar with most of

your opinions. Since you insist on flagrantly posting your opinions to the

newsgroups with differing views, I think it is only fair that I share my

opinion with you personally (not further disrupting the newsgroups you post

to). You may reply with a personal response if you wish, but please do not

use my address for any other purpose. =)

I have been an active mountain biker for almost a year now. I would even

say that I have become an avid mountain biker, judging by how often I

participate. I enjoy being away from the city in a natural setting; it is

one of my favorite means of relaxation. I feel that public trail use (note:

not abuse) is perfectly within my rights as an American citizen and as a

human being. The Bible (KJV) clearly states that this earth is meant for us

humans to use... or as it says to "subdue" it and have "dominion" over it

and the animals here. I believe that to be true. Humans have precidence

over animals. The animals exist, as do the other components of the earth,

for us. I remind you, I am not suggesting that we abuse the priviledges God

has given us humans, but I feel totally justified in using the land the way

I do.

I am not a member of any advocacy groups, and I've never helped as a

trailbuilder or maintainer, but my conscience is clear. I obey the rules of

the trail (and the laws of the land) to the best of my ability and that is

that. If the city wishes to establish a tax to maintain public trails, then

I have no problem paying it. Call me old fashioned, but this is how I was

raised. C'mon Mike, mountain biking is fun for a lot of people and it's

clearly not the biggest problem in the world today. You have a lot of

energy that I'm sure would be put to good use in other areas of life that

are truly worrysome. Maybe you could focus on convincing some Arabs about

the evils of terrorism. At least in that field you would have a chance of

persuading your audience. =)

The bottom line is: I like to ride my bike, it's recreation, and I see

nothing wrong with that. All I'm doing is using the rights that have been

given to me. If you choose not to use those rights...guess what? It's your

right not to use your rights. =P

Thank you for reading my opinion...I most definitely have spent time reading

yours.

-John Morgan

Tue, 16 Oct 2001:

From: Rod Brown <rodney_e_brown@yahoo.com>

Subject: RE: [ROMP] Fw: [mbosc] Nisene Marks General Plan Alternatives

ROMP'ers,

Here I go again, but it is true: this is another important meeting. To put

it bluntly, it would really suck if the top of Nisene Marks were made

wilderness and thus exclude any possibility of future bike access.

Rod Brown

ROMP President

Fri, 21 Sep 2001:

From: "G.T." <ethant@pacificnet.net>

Newsgroups: alt.mountain-bike

Subject: Re: trail closure alert

I give up. I'm riding my bicycle when and where I want to. We lost

Sespe (a fucking road for Pete's sake), Johnson Ridge, and Little Mutau

Creek to wilderness along with many, many miles of beautiful closed to

motor vehicles but open to bicycles singletrack in the Los Padres and

Sequoia Natl Forests over the past few years. It's absolutely

disgusting.

Greg

Sun, 09 Sep 2001:

Reply-To: "JonnyBoy" <jonnyboy@NOSPAMPLEASEtunespotting.co.uk>

From: "JonnyBoy" <john@NOSPAMPLEASEtunespotting.co.uk>

Newsgroups: alt.mountain-bike

Subject: Re: Robo Ranger of Griffith Pk Hog Ties Mtn Biker

> Ha,

> That's a scream............... I ride Griffith Park about twice a

> week. In fact, I just got back from poaching some of the trails

there

> about an hour ago. It's too bad that cyclist are considered

criminals

> these days. If you sit back and let them take one trail, they WILL

take

> them all.

This much is true. They start with a cycling prohibited sign here and

there and then it spreads. I say fsck em. I ride where I want, if they

want to arrest me they`ll have to catch me first.

Sat, 07 Jul 2001:

From: ososcrew1 <ososcrew1@netzero.net>

You suck, mountain biking is an awesome sport and after viewing your craphole webpage im gonna mountain bike more often now.

Sat, 14 Apr 2001:

From: Ward Tuttle <wtuttle_1970@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: mountain bikes

whatever

i am going to continue to ride mountain bikes in the

santa cruz mountains. do you know what you can do

about it?

absolutely nothing.

Mon, 02 Apr 2001:

From: Shaun Reid <trailrider@MINDSPRING.COM>

Soil compaction? Mike, if mountain bikes are compacting the soil, then your recurring claims of erosion must be unfounded. As a civil engineer with a concentration in soils engineering, I can tell you that soil compaction and soil erosion are quite different and that if mountain bikes are compacting the soil, they are not eroding it.

Wed 21 Mar 2001:

Tue, 27 Feb 2001:

From: Bernchrisp@aol.com

Subject: Trail trials

Berry sez --

If the various land managing agencies dealt with the cycling

> > community in an "honest and constructive" way I'm sure there would

> be much less of this illegal trail building, especially by committed

> > cyclists with a long history of engagement with land managers.

> > Additionally, I doubt that the trail constitutes a harm or damage

> to the resource. If that was a primary concern to land managers they

> > would totally cease vehicle patrols and all rangers would be on

> foot, horseback or bike. Berry

> >

> > >Comments anyone???

Sure, I'll take a stab...I think the illegal builders will continue

regardless of political realities...

As I've noted before, trails most certainly DO cause erosion, just as roads

and other soils disturbances do. If that's not harm to the resource, why are

we spending so much time worrying about erosion control? Indeed, it is the

main reason some trails should not be built in the first place.

The idea that we should have trail access to every square inch of everywhere

is truly outdated. It is precisely the sort of argument that will get

cyclists lumped together with dirt bikers, jet skiers and snowmobilers in the

minds of most conservationists. I for one have had it with the notion that

because we are low-impact (quiet, lightweight, human-powered) we are thus

entitled to any and all trails, and ought to have more of them all over the

place. The Bay Area's parks are in danger of becoming little more than

personal playgrounds for adults...this in a region with some of the most rare

and endangered habitats on earth.

Y'all are making a serious mistake if you dismiss Mike Vandeman out of

hand...he is plenty active on this and other wildland preservation issues.

Sure he's over the top when he discusses mountain bikes -- that doesn't

mean he's an idiot. Read through his whole website and find out how much

documentation he has. Build your own database of reasoned counterpoints;

weigh them against his. Are you still comfortable with riding all over the

hillsides all the time?

Berry -- get real about patrol. If an agency has tens of thousands of acres

spread over 2 or 3 counties, and little or no on-site housing for ranger

staff, and they are expected to respond to fires, serious medical

emergencies, natural disasters and criminal activity in remote areas by

themselves, how should they patrol but in vehicles, especially on existing

roads? Just because foot or mounted patrol is superior for ecologic reasons

does not mean it is always practical for resource protection purposes.

Bern

Mon, 19 Feb 2001:

From: Charles Jalgunas <imahorse@stanford.edu>

Subject: [ROMP] On the way to the trailwork...

Volunteers, past and future,

The opportunity has come around again to pay for year-round mountain bike access to the Soquel Demonstration State Forest, and the price is an unbelievable bargain. We're meeting at Highland at 9:00am this Sunday the 25th for a few hours of good hard work maintaining the trails we all love to ride [Have you ever seen a clearer definition of a bribe? Mike].

The recent snow in the Summit area has proven to be more than a lot of our coastal climate Madrones and Redwoods can handle. The CDF and riders are reporting tree tops and whole trees have fallen on the upper roads and trails in the Demo and are making passage difficult for workers and recreators alike. This upcoming trail work day will be spent helping the CDF's newest employee, Tim, clear debris from the top of Ridge Trail, and time permitting, draining and removing stutter bumps on the bottom of Ridge near Saw Pit.

…

Charles Jalgunas

Stewards of Soquel Forest

H # 650-917-8699

W # 408-369-9666

Thu, 01 Feb 2001:

From: Miles Todd <mdtodd@san.rr.com>

Newsgroups: alt.mountain-bike

Subject: Re: San Diego Mountain Bikers

Greg wrote:

> And you know what? Next time we ride JD is going to kill me for saying

> this but a little well-placed civil disobedience doesn't hurt anybody or

> anything. No matter what kind of perfect example we set it only takes a

> very small but vocal minority to close areas.

>

> Greg

In Mr. Sorni's defense, the trails on his list that are in fact of dubious

legality or clearly off limits are extremely well-used by the mountain bike

community here in San Diego, and have to a great extent become de facto

mountain bike riding areas. In fact, one time while I was riding Carrizo (with

Bill, mind you) we stopped to talk to the President of the SD&A railway corp

(which owns the property), who reminded us that we were tresspassing. "But,"

he said, "we don't mind the mountain bikers because they help keep an eye on

things." On another occaision I stopped to talk to a Viejas indian reservation

police officer who told me they don't mind riders on Anderson Truck Trail

(their property) but don't like people parking and littering on their turf...

So in other words, although illegal, these trails are ok to ride.

Miles

Thu, 25 Jan 2001:

Subject: RE: Mountain Bikers Censor Their Own Email List, to Cover Up Acci dent!

[from a friend:] I believe a lot of these thrill seekers have been involved in serious

accidents w/out wearing a helmet....they certainly act like it.

From: Mike Vandeman

To: Roland Vilett

Subject: Mountain Bikers Censor Their Own Email List, to Cover Up

Accident!

Why, if you want to educate mountain bikers on how to behave, do you want

to censor the very information they need to hear?!

Why have you covered up the MAJOR accident during a mountain bike race in

Briones Regional Park on 9/23/2000, and the fact that the biker is STILL IN

A COMA, 4 months later?! Could it be that you don't want people to know the

truth about mountain biking?

Mike

Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 15:13:35 -0800

From: Roland Vilett <roland@vilett.com>

Subject: Re: My Wreck Report- Joaquin Miller Park

Hi Cheryl,

I was very sorry to read of your accident involving another mountain biker.

I agree wholeheartedly that certain individuals desperately need to learn

a valuable lesson in responsible riding. It's irresponsible individuals

like these that do more damage to the cause and rights of mountain bikers

than all the mountain-bike-haters combined.

On that note, I'd also like to suggest to everyone that they refrain

from posting this sort of information to this list. The point is of

course valid and important to make, however unfortunately there are

certain anti-mountain bike individuals who have unauthorized access

to this list and monitor it regularly looking for anything that they

can use against us, in or out of context. Stories like this are

*exactly* the sort of thing that they will happily copy

and parade around in front of every city council, park district,

and trails policy group they can find, as "proof" that mountain bikes

are dangerous and should be banned from all parks. The fact that these

types of incidents are in fact extremely rare (I have been mountain

biking in the east bay for more than five years and I've never even

come close to being hit by another mountain biker) of course never gets

mentioned.

From past experience we already know what would have happened if he

had hit a hiker. In all of the year 2000, exactly one hiker was hit

by a bicycle in Joaquin Miller and suffered injuries. The bike

haters are *still* crowing about this single incident every

chance they get, once again as "proof" that mountain bikes should be

banned. See the latest Sierra Club Yodeler for details.

-Roland

At 10:07 AM 1/24/01 -0800, Cheryl Stockton wrote:

-My Wreck Report-

I was mtb'ing Saturday at noon in the Joaquin Miller park in Oakland. I was

riding towards a blind corner on my side of the trail. I was going about

8mph. Next thing you know a face appears 1/4" from mine. SMACK! Helmet to

helmet. (Are you wearing yours? I don't need to insert here that I probably

would have had my head cracked open if I hadn't had my helmet on.)

Some mtb DUDE was going way too fast and riding out of control. He crossed

to my side of the trail on a blind corner. His stats are: Robert D, from

Fremont, riding a yellow bike.His buddy was on a black bike.

So he took me out. My upper lip was huge and purple. About the size of a

golf ball for two days. My blood was everywhere. I feel like I was run over

by a bus. What would have happened if he ran over a hiker in Jouquin Miller

Park? I took two days off work to recover. I am not yet recovered.

My message --again-- to Robert D and to people who ride like Robert D:

Please ride safely and remember that there are others out on the trails

besides you.

Should I mention that this is the second time I have been run over by a

fellow mountain biker in the East Bay Hills? I don't get it. These are

family trails. There a hundreds of people sharing the trails at the same

time. Slow down!

Thu, 25 Jan 2001:

At 02:51 PM 1/25/2001 -0500, TheBluRidr@aol.com wrote:

>I was just wondering, why do they have a problem with you?

[me:]Simple: mountain bikers don't want anyone to tell the truth about the harm that mountain biking does, because it could cause trails to be closed to bikes. It's a valid fear! It happens every day (thank God)!

I have read

>several of your postings, and while I don't agree with them all, you are

>certainly entitled to your opinion. Hopefully, public discourse will result

>in a positive outcome.

I agree. That's why I post all my writings directly in the MTB newsgroups & email lists. But they still want me to be censored. Or worse. It's a good thing our Constitution isn't being written today! :)

>Eric

Sat, 20 Jan 2001:

From: Dale Cooper <dale@cooperoil.com>

Mike: In my book your a crackpot, go save the moon. Have you ever seen what nature herself can do. I have I live in the shadow of Mt St Helens, and have seen first hand the amazing power of fire and water. What's a little knobby going to hurt.

Thu, 18 Jan 2001:

At 11:18 PM 1/18/2001 -0600, mtnbikemedic1@juno.com wrote:

>How many years have I been reading your anti-mountain bike diatribes now?

>One certainly has to admire your persistence, if nothing else. But in all

>honesty, has it helped?

[me:]Of course. I make it okay for others to express similar sentiments. Many people are timid, and let the mountain bikers intimidate them. Or they are afraid of conflict, and want everyone to "get along". There is a large anti-mountain bike movement. Of course, as long as people can get away with selfish behavior, it will continue.

Has your continued vigilance on the net garnered

>any support for your cause? I know a lot of cyclists get really ticked at

>you, but hey, you have as much right to express your opinion as anybody.

>I won't argue with that.

>

>Some times I read your stuff, sometimes I don't. I may not agree with

>you, but you are always interesting to read. Your detractors can be

>interesting, too. Some of them get a little hot about it. What can you

>do?

Just tell the truth. What I say is verifiable by anyone. In fact, it is OBVIOUS. Mountain bikers just don't want to admit what is obvious to everyone else.

>Interesting, yes. Convincing? No. I will continue to ride, and continue

>to help other riders. I like my bike. It helps keep me fit. I do seem to

>ride a lot more on pavement than I used to. Maybe that's a "medic thing."

>Or maybe, somewhere deep in my subconscious, you have won a small

>victory.

Exactly. They won't admit it, of course, because they have tender egos, but I have forced the entire MTB community to think about wildlife and the harm they do to wildlife. But even the police can't make everyone obey the law. Keep siding with the criminals, if that's what turns you on. I suspect it isn't, which is why you wrote. It is scary breaking with your peers, which is why hardly any mountain bikers have had the guts to do it. But many bicyclists tell me privately that they agree with me.

>Press on,

>Hans Erdman

>Minnesota