Fri, 30 Dec 2005:

I've been a mountain biker since 1982, and I enjoy riding on dirt very much. But I don't want to see bikes in wilderness. When I'm out walking in wilderness, I don't like hurrying to get out of the way of fast-moving bikes, I don't like all the flashy colors, or the dust they create. And more to the point, just seeing the tire tracks from bikes already passed makes the area feel small and shatters the "disconnect" from the modern technological world that only wilderness can provide. Tomas Suk

Fri, 23 Dec 2005:

From: "Michael Dart" <>

Newsgroups: alt.mountain-bike,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.backcountry,sci.environment,ca.environment

Subject: Re: Merry Christmas, Mountain Bikers! Here's your New Year's Resolution!

I had a New Year's Resolution a few years ago...

To form a mountain bike club to organize the riders in the Richmond Area.

Since then we've grown to over 120 members, destroyed much habitat by

building new trails and are planning more for this New Year.

We even offended one of your followers here Mikey. Something about owl

nesting areas. It's been a good year!

Ride on!


12 Dec 2005:

North Shore Mountain Biking Forums :: The Shore :: I wrote a paper on the Shore's sustainability for college...

12-12-2005, 01:23 PM #16


Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2003

Posts: 129


Go Banana Slugs!

Pretty decent paper, you did alot of research, but some key elements of the North Shore trail building history were left out.

1. All the original trails were built without permission. There was a period of one-up manship where each new trail was built steeper and crazier than the last.

2. Cypress chainsaw massacre.[Kudos to the District of West Vancouver taking down all illegally built structures]

3. Formation of NSMBA. Development of standards for mtb trails. As far as I know, Vancouver was the first area to legitimize MTB-designed trails. At the time, most trails legally open to bikes were hiking trails, and any new trails built must have been multi-use. The NSMBA really pushed the idea the hiker and biker needs and wants for trails are at odds with one another, and designing every trail to be multi-use is not the way to go.[Actually that is wrong. The NSMBA has pushed the idea of multi-use trails to the max.]

Mon, 12 Dec 2005:



List-Subscribe: <>

Subject: ST Edwards St Park Why we work on trails, Why the stunts are gone!

Saint Edwards State Park Trailwork (NASCAR turn) Sunday, December 18th -

10:00 AM

Ride leader: Craig McKinnon Location: St. Edwards/Big Finn Hill

Date change NOW on Sunday. This is a fun and easy place to do trailwork.

easy free parking free food maybe go for a ride after.

Why ? work at st ed's it's fine right?

We continue to work cuz, there is always someone wanting us off the trail.

There is always someone or some groups who march into the rangers office

and ask why are there Mt bikes on the trails? He always can say.. Well, the Mt

bikers work on the trails with there own money $ every year and they have for

the last 12 years.

That's why we work on the trails.

And No I didn't take down the stunts it's all the land managers. King County

Parks, St. Edward's State Park and Bastuyr. They really don't like doing it,

it cost them money. They have to pay people to take them out, they have to pay

to haul them to the dump. It makes us look bad.

They asked me and I didn't offer so they did it and they will continue to do

it unless YOU convince they to build one.

The Bastyur people said that some mt bikers took the planks from the baseball

benches to build the stunts. How does that make us look?

Personally I like to ride them, I miss some of them, but I don't like the

trouble they bring. Someone build a new long trail through Big finnhill. In time

king county will find out and they will not be happy.

This official trailwork is the only positive thing we do as far as the land

managers are concerned.


St. Ed's Trail work 10-2 meeting by the gym parking lot. Meet next to the

gym, free parking for volunteers. Ride after. Have fun, work with cool people,

help maintain the trails you can ride. We had fun last time and hope to have fun

building a NASCAR banked turn over a wet spot. We may also re build a

re-taing wall on the volunteer trail. BBTC-(ESTA) Evergreen State Trails Association

Trail funded. Food and or snacks provided. We have ton's of tools, sneakers

not recommended. 11th year leader. We will be further building up the existing

trails and adding challenge. Craig Mckinnon cell/voice 425 503 8261

Sat, 5 Nov 2005:


To: Ross Finlayson <>

Subject: Re: [ROMP] MROSD seasonal trail closures - why not include hikers?

It seems pretty obvious to me that a mtn bike causes lots less trail

impact than a horse, under either wet or dry conditions.

It also seems likely that on dry trails that a mtn bike is probably a very

similar impact as a hiker.

But I have a hard time believing that for wet trails.

On wet ground, a bike tire makes a groove...a perfect channel for a

rivulet to cause significant erosion if there's any gradient..

Boot prints certainly have an impact in wet ground, but they don't cause

this problem as tires do.

Paul Wendt

Fri, 04 Nov 2005:


From: "mwestra2" <>

Subject: Mt. Fromme RR + More on Kenda Nevegals in the pouring rain

The N.Shore in the pouring rain -- still a heck of a lot of fun. [So much for not riding when trails are wet! mjv]

Was up in Vancouver for a reunion and was first thinking about

bailing on the rides because of the rain, but decided to hit Mt.

Fromme for a couple of quick spins. Upper Oilcan, Oilcan and I think

Digger on Wed. 7th Secret, Espresso and Dempsey today. There were

streams running down some of the trail, but there's so much rock, it

doesn't matter! What a blast. All awesome trails.

There have been some questions about Nevegals lately -- well mine

stuck to the wet rock like glue. Even did well on many of the roots

and bridges. Useless (as I imagine everything is) on wet logs.

I learned 2 things the past few days...

1. Don't let the rain turn you away -- there's much fun to be had.

2. Don't get scared off by ratings on trails like Upper Oilcan --

almost all of the sick drops and TTFs have easier paths around them,

and you can can walk around the ones that don't (just don't go too

fast and pay attention).

Ride on through the fall & winter !!

Sat, 22 Oct 2005:


From: "b_hasenjaeger" <>

Subject: Bend Big Fat Tour epic, 95 miles of scenery

During a momentary lapse of sanity I allowed my friend Scott to convince me to sign-up for the 11th annual Bend Big Fat Tour ride. This is a fund-raising event put on by Cog Wild Bicycle Tours, with the money going towards trail building and mountain bike advocacy in Eastern Oregon, via the Central Oregon Trail Alliance. The route was laid-out by Paul Thomasberg, who is one of the principal organizers of the event.

This is a 95 mile tour, starting at Paulina Peak and finishing in Sisters, a small town northwest of Bend. It is limited to 50 entries. The ride motto is "No Whiners".

Wait a minute, 95 miles? In one day? What am I, nuts? Well mostly, but not completely. The insane distance is offset by some important attractions:

. Starts at 8000' elevation, finishes at 3300'

. Traverses some beautiful scenery

. Contains over 60 miles of single-track

. Is sponsored by Deschutes Brewery

The ride profile.

We left downtown Bend 5:30 Friday morning via a shuttle to the top of Paulina Peak. The temperature dipped into the mid-20's during the drive up, but we went through a weird thermocline and at the peak it was a balmy 45 degrees. The daytime high was predicted to reach the high 70's. Unusual for October, but I wasn't complaining.

A map of the trail route.

We hit the trail right at sunrise, about 7:10 am, under clear skies and a strong breeze. The first 12 miles rolled up and down, traversing 180 degrees around the rim of Newberry Crater, a (hopefully) dormant volcano with 2 beautiful lakes down in the crater. The trail ducked in and out of the forest, alternating between fun slaloms in the trees and stunning views highlighted by the sun rising over beautiful mountains and lakes. The endless views in the early morning looked other-worldly, more like a surreal painting than the real physical landscape.

At North Paulina Peak the trail pointed down, descending 3000' over the next 25 miles. We passed through alpine forests, high meadows, and the huge lava fields of Newberry National Volcanic Monument. The lava flows on either side of the trail were dozens of feet high at times, with some fast downhill double-track sections across the lava beds. The trail bed was crushed lava rock, scattered with larger day-ending size chunks. Well, only day-ending if you hit one. We were told it was probably a bad idea to fall in the lava rock, so I was definitely on high alert, trying to maintain that fine line between going fast to cover the miles, but not taking too many chances.

The route crossed Highway 97 at the Lava Lands Visitor Center, where the first aid station was located. After re-watering and eating a bit (they fed us really well), we were off, heading towards the Deschutes River, following along the southwest side of the main lava bed.

It was 20 miles from aid #1 to aid #2. The route began with a fun tight single-track roll through the trees, then into some double-track and dirt road sections. But after crossing the river the next 15 miles of trail was a continuous single-track, climbing about 1000' feet through a beautiful pine forest. The trail is marked with forest service signs that say "Mountain Bikes Only" (how cool is that!). During this entire trail section I was riding alone in the forest, no one around, no other sounds. Just me, pedaling, whistling, singing, yelling, looking around, pedaling some more, then some more pedaling. What a day!

After a short rest at aid #2, I headed for the climb up the side of Tumalo Falls. Ah, only14 miles to aid #3. But after the first 3 rolling miles the trail climbs 2000' over the next 6 miles, all single track, much of it soft single track. Having ridden over 60 miles at this point, it was a pretty brutal climb. Once at the top, there were 5 more miles of rolling forest service roads until aid station #3 was in sight.

I hit aid #3 at 5:10pm. The sun was supposed to set at 6:45. The sweep hadn't left yet, but they were getting ready (drinking Red Bull and eating cookies???). Well it was only a mere 25 miles to the finish: mostly fast downhill, some small climbs, across the paved road and a short trail into Sisters and a cold beer. After a brief discussion with the sweep and the check point guy, I convinced them I could finish. I surely didn't want to ride the road down to town after that long climb to the top. Besides, I had my crappy little commuter light with me. What could possibleye go wrong?

I felt a real exhilarating rush starting the last section. I knew I was going to finish. Woo Hoo! After a short climb to the ridge top the trail started down. And it turned out to be a wonderfully fun descent, well worth the previous 14 mile battle to get there. Almost 15 miles of pure downhill. This was absolutely the best, most fun and most technical part of the ride. Steep, loamy forest trail, lots of rocks, some drops, some roots, very few switchbacks. The trail followed ridges and creek-filled ravines straight down the side of the mountain. I don't know how fast I was going, but my eyes were watering most of the time, and the high-speed bouncing around made everything look jittery and out of focus (couldn't be fatigue, could it?). But nothing says adrenaline high like dodging baby-head rocks at warp speed in waning daylight.

I crossed the last paved road at 6:20pm. This was my final option to bail and take the road into town. I waited there for the sweep riders since it was getting dark. I didn't know if they still wanted me out on the trail, and I wasn't sure which way to turn on the road to head back to town. When they didn't show after several minutes I opted to continue on the trail on the other side of the road.

It started out as a flat single-track winding lazily through the trees, and I thought, "boy, I sure hope there's some more downhill so I can eat-up the last few miles before dark." But no, I was under my own power and it was getting darker. At about 6:50 I hit some unseen rocks sneakily placed in plain sight in the middle of the trail and almost bailed-off into the bushes. I had delayed turing on my light as long as possible, but it was so dark now I had no choice.

Once the light was on my universe became a 15" circle of light about 10' in front of my tire. The only way to tell when I went off the trail was when the branches hit me on the head. My forward progress slowed way down as I stopped at each trail, spur, and road intersection to lift the front of the bike, point the light in the trees, and look for the pink trail marker ribbon. I was completely paranoid that I'd miss a turn and ride the woods around Sisters all night. But each time I began to think I made a wrong turn, there was some more ribbon (whew!). They sure did a nice job marking the route.

At about 7:10, I saw some lights through the trees, and pretty quickly was on a paved road heading into downtown Sisters. I had to stop and ask a gas station guy where the finish line was in town, and fortunately he knew. I was the last rider out on the course, the last finisher. But it didn't matter. Man that first beer tasted good. We exchanged a few stories about the ride while finishing the beer. Then it was off to Scott's house just outside of town, some BBQ steaks, and bed.

This was the best ride I've ever done. The scenery, the challenge of nearly 100 miles, the weather, the terrain, the endless single-track, the organization, everything about it was great. If you are looking for an epic event that reinforces the comraderie, spirit, pure childish fun, and grassroots nature of mountain biking, give the Bend Big Fat Tour a try. I'll be there next year.

Cog Wild's website is


The ride elevation profile is at

The map of the trail route is at

Info about Newberry National Volcanic Monument is at

Sun, 28 Aug 2005:


Newsgroups: alt.mountain-bike

Seriously, one thing that Vandeman is right about: a lot of you guys

are total idiots.


Fri, 26 Aug 2005:


Newsgroups: alt.mountain-bike

Subject: Re: Broken Bones....

Broken colarbone twice once back in 78 and just two

years ago. Broke both legs and an ankle in 76 and they had to be pinned.

Broke my skull in 62. Broke my foot in 78. Broke my hand in 79. Broke my

wrist in 71. Broke my finger in 62. Broke three toes in 96,get this

knicking a rat in half like an open double barrel shot gun. Broke a knee

in 67. Thats broken bones.

Wed, 27 Jul 2005:

Subject: Child in a Coma from mountain bike stunt -- Ladner Forums :: The Shore :: accident in ladner :(

07-23-2005, 09:50 AM #1



Join Date: Nov 2002


Posts: 13,543


accident in ladner :(

well I finally saw what they mean when little kids do what big kids do.

I ride down a 14/16 stair overpass EVERYDAY mayb 5 times a day both sides to get to skatepark and other side of ladner. now i ride down fast. Yesterday a group of younger kids, grade 8 started to dare their friends to ride down 1 made it and his friend who lives BESIDE ME whent fell and cracked his skull in the frotn and the side and is now in a coma its no good plus he didnt have a helmet. has been shipped from VGH to Peace arch for cat scan now to New west for coma experts. best wishes to him.



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07-23-2005, 10:08 AM #2


-~ Team BIGHIT ~-

Join Date: Jun 2004

Location: Calgary AB

Posts: 1,488


i hope you were sporting a helmet to make a good influence?



FOR SALE: 2003 Fox Vanilla R Shock: 7.875" x 2.25". Comes with 650lbs spring. $60


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07-23-2005, 10:21 AM #3



Join Date: Nov 2002


Posts: 13,543


most times yes. sometimes no. if im not riding skatepark much. still hes 13/14 he needs to use common sense



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07-23-2005, 10:26 AM #4

Lady Gravity

Catching mice...

Join Date: Nov 2002

Location: Heaven on earth for biking

Posts: 6,417


so...let me get this ride a stairset, without a helmet, some kid does it because you did, also without a helmet, and cracks his skull? holy crap

that poor kid, i sure hope he recovers i feel for his parents right now


*hardtail pride*

::_Team Pancake Pride_::

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07-23-2005, 10:31 AM #5



Join Date: Nov 2002


Posts: 13,543


no his friends dared him to i wasent even there. just heard. i ususally wear my helmet. but ive been doin thos stairs for over 8 years



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07-23-2005, 12:36 PM #6


Big Member

Join Date: Nov 2002

Location: Vancouver Island

Posts: 3,410


Dude that sux, I hope he gets better with minimal issues...

You never know who is watching while you are riding your may not want to be a role model...but people are watching.


This is the jerk who "feels so bad for the kid". The stairs from the pedestrian overpass where the kid fell on his head can be seen next to "rosscofat's" left hand in the picture below. Idiot! And what is he doing riding his bike in a Skateboard park? Imbecile!

couple of photos

a cople of photos taken by my gf at my skatepark tonight not to bad on the photo skills. I need to improve on my tricks tho pretty sad.

Life style



TIny hipage



BIg Hipage



that is all. but pretty good for first day back on my street bike




same hipage



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07-19-2005, 11:35 PM #2


Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2003

Posts: 894


to cool for a helmet?


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07-19-2005, 11:36 PM #3



Join Date: Nov 2002


Posts: 13,543


pretty much. I dont say do what do. I also put on a bad example for little kids. and the companies I ride for. so dont do what I do. plus that has is like a helmet.

Tue, 19 Jul 2005:

From: Joshua Putnam <>

Subject: Re: stunt park?

girlwhoboards3 wrote:

> i thought washington state laws made private and public owners non-

> liable?

Non-liable for *naturally ocurring* hazards, if I remember correctly.

Artificial hazards, e.g. structures and jumps, of which the land owner

is aware, are still the land owner's responsibility. I know at least

one land owner who closed his property to all bicycle traffic because

of the construction of unauthorized structures. (Disclaimer: I'm not

a lawyer, I'm an insurance agent.) is Joshua Putnam


Updated Infrared Photography Gallery:


Thu, 07 Jul 2005:


Subject: Bike / Deer collusions do they happen? Yep

Not sure how often this happens at Tolt, but I am on my second time now.

On the Tuesday Night at Tolt ride, Iain and I were flying way ahead of the group on '76. I came around the corner and locked up the brakes to avoid hitting the young deer standing on the trail. I was close enough to touch it, and it just stayed put into the other riders arrived..

Second time was coming down IAB alone at night this past winter and just about nailed two deer crossing the trail. I found Bike lights have the same effect on Deer as car lights, they become paralyzed and don't move.

Obviously lower on the cool factor then the Bear, that Eric C. encounterd at Whistler, but cool all the same.


Thu, 07 Jul 2005: Forums :: The Shore :: Trail Nazi About to Get Busted?


Large Member

Join Date: Apr 2003

Location: In the woods

Trail Nazi About to Get Busted?

Yesterday at 3pm I was just finishing a hike with my dogs up Cypress. As I came back towards the first lookout I saw a guy doing something on the trail just at the bottom of Mystery DH. He didn't hear me coming until I was right on him. I caught him red-handed in the act of piling up large sticks to block part of the trail. I pretended like I was just a fellow hiker and asked what he was doing. He told me he was trying to divert mountain bikers off those trails because of the erosion. I played along with it to see what I could get from him and then told him that I was a mountain biker and then told him what I thought about what he was doing. The fact is that kids ride up there and he's going to seriously injure a kid one day, or worse. He then got a little nervous and basically took off.

He was wearing a pinkish shirt, shorts and heavy hiking boots. He had silver glasses, a little white hair and a mostly bald head. He also had two silver ski poles for hiking. No dog with him though.

I believe I also got his license plate because there was only one car at the lookout and absolutely no one else around. Can't be sure of that though.

I talked with the parks people at the works yard at the bottom who were very interested because they had never caught him in the act before. Apparently they have put up signs saying that trail vandalism is against the law. They took down my name and number and went up to find him. They were also going to follow up with the WV police.

I hope that this is the Trail Nazi and that he is about to be busted. I haven't heard anything since yesterday but will post more if this goes somewhere. Cross your fingers for the end of the Trail Nazi.

Wed, 6 Jul 2005:

From: Paul Nam <>

To: ROMP <>

Subject: [ROMP] ATB TIRED July 5th

List-Help: <>

Knobby tyred types,

We enjoyed another spin up the canyon. The 27 mile ride unreeled without mishap. It got a bit cool at the summit. When we finally pedalled away from Horseshoe Lake we witnessed the spine chilling spectre of the bony fingered dark hooded mass of fog combing through the treetops and engulfing the trail terrain we had just traversed in golden sunlight. We delighted in our retreat down the Skid Trail and to the warm valley we call home.

Last week (I forgot to mention) we encountered two MROSD trucks and radar in the canyon. Happily we were riding this time in careful concord with regulations. This was a close one. Chris was descending in the front and watched her speed on her odometer. When she saw the rangers her speed was about 19 mph. No bad feelings.

This week we were again cautious. I thought I saw freshly bent green herbs on the verge of the trail indicating the recent passage of heavy pickup truck tyres, and I said the same to the group, and advised caution. This time we saw a ranger truck further down the trail than I've ever seen one before. But they weren't wielding radar.

One of the rangers recognized me (I'm finding that a lot of staff know my face nowadays) and cheerfully greeted me. That was nice, and these guys are really nice people when you get right down to it.

Wheelbarrowing past the truck barely avoiding the poison oak we exchanged pleasantries.

We didn't have time for lengthy discussion. Darkness was only 30 minutes away. The rangers explained that they were closing off some of the side-shooter trails. They expressed their disdain for them. As we all know, these sort of trail features have sprung up all over the place in greater abundance in recent years. Sometimes they are wall rides, berm drops, jumps, chicanes, tree root jumps, and puddle detours, and air launchers.

I don't have time for a lengthy discussion either. This is a bone of contention. If this stuff continues to grow, something negative may happen to bike access.

I think that the logs and branches the rangers drag onto these trail mustaches to close them off will be simply removed by certain riders, and some riders will continue to ride them. If they can be dragged on, they can be dragged off.

Like it or not, we're likely to see this issue addressed in more durable terms with our input or without it.

Back to the ride... It was a very pleasant experience. Cruising my 4" front and rear suspension disc braked ride got me thinking in terms of comparison with my now broken ridgid bike. I was nuts to put that bike to the tasks it had survived. What was I thinking?

I now see the survival of my rides so long ago down the slopes of 14,499' White Mountain on that defeated cross bike as an example of dumb luck. The beatings never end. Join us next week?

It'll be different. Probably a frontal assualt on Indian Creek to Water Wheel with a special side excursion on the way.

BTW, My heart goes out to David Zabriskie of the CSC team and the misfortune on the time trial. I thought about that incident all the time on the ride today. It's a heavy moment in sport. I don't know why he crashed. That he did crash, at that moment, in that race, becomes a defining moment in this years Tour, and a mystery, at least to me.

Obviously the accident will be painfully remembered for a long time. Cycling is usually a very cheery experience. Eventually all cyclists crash though. Never think the ride is over, until you are done riding; or the riding is over with you.,5976,s1-12396-527-expert,00.html


Sat, 02 Jul 2005:

From: "Just zis Guy, you know?" <norfolk.inspam@dev.null>

Newsgroups: alt.mountain-bike,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.backcountry,sci.environment,ca.environment

Subject: Re: Mountain Bikers STILL Don't Get It!

On Sat, 02 Jul 2005 16:16:44 GMT, Mike Vandeman <>


>.>BS. And why not leave the bike at the trailhead? There's no good reason to take

>.>a bike on a trail.

>.False. You can't think of one (or rather: you refuse to admit of the

>.possibility of one), that doesn't mean there is none.

>Liar. If you could think of one, you would have posted it. The fact is, you


Liar. Here are two: Because I enjoy it, and because I can see more

country in a day.


Tue, 17 May 2005:

From: Paul Nam <>

Subject: Re: [ROMP] RE: Palo Alto crack down

List-Subscribe: <>,


Sean and all,

Is there any practical hope for using positive reinforcement to improve mountain biker behavior in general, and particularly to discourage over-speeding, riding recklessly,off trail etc.?

My hypothesis about radar and citations is that this application of negative reinforcement may have precisely the opposite effect on some riders. The reason is that some riders react so negatively to the experience [of being ticketed] that they internally (and perhaps subconsciously on an emotional level) determine that they would take more opportunities to speed because this is an emotionally fulfilling way of retaliating to the authority figure who offended them ("I'll keep on speeding just to piss them off.").

Some may characterize such behavior as deviant and at some level psychotic. Indeed, if most mountain biker personalities functioned this way, that would be damning. The perception of such self-centered behavior is probably one of the main reasons why some other trail users despise mountain bikers so much. It's also an expression of arrogance. "My needs are more important than yours. My way of doing things is better than yours."

But could positive reinforcement be applied practically? Not sure. I am certain adults can be trained/civilized using the same techniques that are so popular and effective upon children and pets. Trail ettiquette is difficult to observe and reinforce.

For certain, it won't work unless the enforcer believes it can work and that the mountain bikers are capable of improving their behavior.

Here are some points about positve reinforcement:

1. Make it personal. No one reinforcer works with everyone, so find out what each person values. (What's in it for me if I do what you want me to do?")

2. Make it earned. People respect most what they earn. It's your job to set up opportunities for people to earn positive reinforcement.

3. Make it immediate. When you see desirable behavior, reinforce it immediately. The more immediate the reinforcement, the more effective it is. Try to catch people in the act of doing what you want.

4. Make it frequent. It takes many reinforcers (authorities and peers) to turn desirable behavior into a habit.

ROMP needs to reach out to the riding community more effectively. Positive reinforcement is an important element of an overall education program.


Mon, 25 Apr 2005:

From: Kathleen Meyer <>



Subject: [ROMP] Napa Valley Dirt Classic Race

It was 1995, my first ever mtb race, where my inexperience caused me to crash and fracture my skull. I decided that racing wasn't for me and I should stick to enjoying my bike. The following spring Glenn Wegner convinced me that the Napa Valley Dirt Classic course was so fun that I should go and just ride it like a ride. The course is on private property, usually not open to mountain biking. It was awesome! Now 10 years later I found myself back there.

Sat, 9 Apr 2005:

From: Geoff Stahl <>

Subject: Re: [ROMP] Fwd: [mbosc] Nisene Bike Settlement

To me it shows how broken our system is and how a special interest group with money and experienced lawyers can derail a process that is designed to get the public involved. It is like the loser of the game crying, taking their ball and running home. Does not make me want to "play well with others" when it comes to multi-use, because obviously in the end they do not want to play with us.

Really it seem one could almost say, who cares about process, doing the right thing and riding legally. None of which affect this is case. This is about money, lawyers and NOT working with the system.

BTW, I do not ride illegal trails, do slow when passing others and in general try to play well with others, but boy do things like this make me not so inclined to be so law abiding and civil.

but hey, I can now ride on the fire road and not be a criminal, wow, what a concept.

Wonder how much money the park has for enforcement?

Geoff Stahl

Fri, 08 Apr 2005 23:05:42 -0700

From: Charles Jalgunas <>

Subject: Nisene Bike Settlement


It looks like State Parks will be prevented from managing this park responsibly for 20 or so years. Bikes are now confined to the fire road and overused trails below the steel bridge, and not allowed to distribute to the underutilized upper areas of the park.


Mon, 4 Apr 2005:


From: Joel Benford <>

Subject: Re: Science Proves Mountain Biking Is More Harmful Than Hiking

List-Subscribe: <>

Mountain bikers yield to hikers. If they don't then THEY are bad, NOT

mountain biking and if mountain bikes damage the environment then

horses and deer annihilate it! Uh??? Hey, to correct this ridiculous

info, no offense, erosion is NOT harmful to the environment. That is

fact! It has to go somewhere! It is still there! What do you know!

Trails my great grandfather hiked are so different when I go back and

it is good with new grass and ways the creeks go and new rocks are up

from the volcanic action. And don't tell me there isn't volcanic action

in your area, it is everywhere but you may be too young to notice great

changes. Besides I am a hardcore hiker also and I am more explosive on

foot than I am on a mountain bike and I train military alpha style and

sprint up hills and trudge up cliffs and rock walls. I am in 18 year

old condition. I am not going to ride a bike strictly on pavement and

get lack of exercise. I bike up steep trails and cliffs. I need hills

and logs to jump and creeks to swim my bike through and trees to carry

my bike up to jump over crevices and nullies. My great grandfather

lived to 108 years old and he did missions with the indians. Erosion is

NOT bad for the environment if your fuel is hormones and your emissions

are sweat, spit, and phermones. It is not healthy to ride on pavement

but I do it to get to the wild. I would NEVER take engine or motor

powered things into nature! Just my bike or me or a horse. I like to

charm the wild horses to ride longer distances than I can go on foot

with out my bike.

Sun, 27 Mar 2005:



Subject: Re: when it rains...

Clean the bike from riding in all that mud.

In East Tokul we ran through so many mud puddles you think they should be

come endangered Don't we wish.


Sat, 26 Mar 2005:

From: "Randy Lee" <>

Subject: Re: when it rains...

Ride get wet clean bike then make potato soup home made bread and need to

ride again to burn off the soup and bread.


Sat, 26 Mar 2005:

To: "Bbtcmembers" <>

From: "bob hollander" <>

Subject: rainy day

What do I do on rainy days? Don't be silly, everybody knows you clean the mud/crud off your bike after riding in the rain. ((((((((s)))))))).

bob h


From: "Ray David" <>

List-Subscribe: <>

Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 00:09:52 -0000

Subject: Re: when it rains...

I ride and get wet. Whats the big deal?

--- In, "girlwhoboards3"

<girlwhoboards3@y...> wrote:


> ...or if you are having one of those "rest days" from biking...just


> what people do besides riding bikes?


> Thanks,

> -Kim

Sat, 26 Mar 2005:

To: Jennifer Lesher <>,

girlwhoboards3 <>


From: courtland capwell <>

List-Subscribe: <>

Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 15:11:14 -0800 (PST)

Subject: Re: when it rains...

Actually I RIDE... rain ride....MUD Mmm MUD....

Then I go to LBS and track mud through shop and look at my NEW RIDE and order other parts for it....


Jennifer Lesher <> wrote:

Take care of all the indoor chores that get neglected when the weather

doesn't suck. This morning it was caulking the bathroom. mmmmmmmm .

. . . caulk . . . .

But, I also do bike related stuff. I'm now heading out to pick up my

hardtail frame (with new headset) and will build it up tomorrow if

it's still rainy.

On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 20:20:43 -0000, girlwhoboards3

<> wrote:

> ...or if you are having one of those "rest days" from biking...just curious

> what people do besides riding bikes?


> Thanks,

> -Kim

Sun, 20 Mar 2005:

To: <>, <>

From: "Bob Bournique" <>

List-Subscribe: <>

Subject: Re: Just had a conversation with a Forest Service person


I'm sure those in the know are surprised that this hasn't come even earlier.

It's lasted longer than I thought it would. Especially given it's

pubilicity. Now, are the other areas next?

As I've said before, nothing's "secret" out there. The timber cruisers and

the forest service folks work the land more than we do and they likely know

where every bootleg place it before the first line is finished.

What they do about it is another thing.

I seem to recall Preston going to a DNR meeting last year and the head

cheese there said bootleg bike trails were they're number three problem.

After jeepers and trash dumpers. I think. And, what was the BBTC going to do

about it?

Now, nobody here ever wants to be the bike cops. It seems we tiptoe around

that all the time. But, getting the word out about demand that won't go away

and getting a legal place to ride that sort of trail really is the only long

term solution.

No, there probably won't be any 35 foot road gaps. So, some people will

always be bent. But, it's something. Albeit slow to materialize.

Thanks for bringing this to everyone's attention. Will they be dismantling

it all and deberming? Usually someone has to get airlifted out to start the

wheels turning in this way. But, I have not heard of anything lately. Wonder

what finally got them to get out there?

Thanks again,


----- Original Message -----

From: "Jason Strother" <>

To: <>

Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2005 5:08 PM

Subject: Just had a conversation with a Forest Service person

> Well, a few of us were up at 38, and the Forest

> Service lady showed up, and basically kicked us off of

> the trails.


> She was fairly nice, and a mtn biker herself, but

> she's getting pressure from higher ups.


> So here's what she told us.


> 1. They will be posting signs stating that the trails

> are illegal.


> 2. They will start with warnings, then start to fine

> people that they catch. The fines could be anywhere

> from $100 - $5,000. I believed her on this one as she

> had just finished fining some people mudding in 4WD's.


> 3. She wants us to spread the word about 38, so here

> is the info.


> The funny thing is she told us we should just go to

> Canada to ride...

Fri, 14 Jan 2005:

From: "Duncan Sailors" <>

Subject: RE: Alpental fatality also local mountain biker

Erik Lewis was my friend. He lived for deep snow and endless singletrack.

Wed, 12 Jan 2005:


Subject: Re: [ROMP] Fwd: Woodside bicyclists again seek Bear Gulch Road access

I had ridden Bear Gulch numerous times in the 70s between Woodside Rd and

Skyline (both up and down), and was very surprised 15 or so years ago to

find that bicycles were prohibited. The electric gate at the bottom was

open, so I continued riding up, but a resident driving up a short time

later told me I wasn't allowed, so I complied and turned around, a bit


When I rode this in the 70s, most of it was dirt (I think the only section

which was paved was that at the bottom). There was always a locked gate

at Skyline which I had to lift the bike over.

Paul Wendt

Mon, 10 Jan 2005:

From: Kevin Axt <>

Subject: Final dirt milage for 2004

I started keeping track last year of the mileage I rode. Just for fun and it

was only an estimate but in totalling it up, looks like I ended up with a

little over 1600 dirt miles. Twas a good year, looking forward to more riding

in '05. Hopefully with a bunch of you.


"A Caffineate Hophead"

Sat, 1 Jan 2005:

To: "Bbtcmembers" <>

From: "Eric Carlson" <>

List-Subscribe: <>

Subject: The End May Be Near - A Victor Falls Ride Report

I have an out of town guest who wanted to ride some NW Singletrack, it's

January 1st and everything I have heard tells me that this is the

traditional opening day for Victor Falls, we didn't have loads of time and

Victor is all that being said we headed over to ride the muddy,

rooty, wet trails of Victor Falls.....but as we drove up the road toward the

Christmas Tree Farm, about 100 yds before the parking lot was a large sign

on the side of the road that was not there a week ago - it says in no

uncertain terms that the land on both sides of the road for the "next 4

miles" is private property and there is NO TRESPASSING ALLOWED, it even

makes mention of security cameras. This sign is in addition to the "closed"

signs that were posted in Mid November marking the normal Victor Closure.

We went ahead and drove to the tree farm lot and found 6-8 vehicles in the

lot with bike racks of all sorts. We still didn't feel right about riding so

we turned around and began to drive away, but as we drove up the road we

talked ourselves back into riding the area '"since so many others were" I

know that doesn't make it right, but we wanted to ride and we wanted to ride

Victor Falls. So we did....

We started out on the west side - WOW, Cascadia and/or developers have been

very busy - there are tank traps at a lot of road intersections in an

attempt to keep vehicles and I'm assuming motorcycles out of the area, there

were even some stumps and logs that have been placed across the entrance to

Cut Yer Bars and the back side of Rusty Truck. Large Excavators have been on

lots of the roads (You can see their tracks all over) and brush is being

pushed around, I can only assume in preparation for more development. You

can almost hear the different colored ribbons attached to surveyor stakes

fluttering in the back ground as you ride along, there are so many flags and


Something else we experienced today was horses, we ran into a group of a

dozen or so horses at the end of the Rookery Ridge Trail and their tracks

were all over the single track on the west side. I haven't ever really

followed horses around like I had the pleasure of doing today, but you have

to see the "damage" to believe it. I'm in no way against horses on open

trails, but I did not know what a "small" group of horses could do to a

trail system - they turned over large rocks and dug deep soft holes all over

the single track, it was amazing. Didn't make riding any easier, but to each

their own I guess.

That's the bad news, the good news is that other than the horse "damage" the

Victor trails are in good shape, once you get around the tank traps, the

stumps and debris (I'm sure they are not there to keep Mt Bikers out!!) the

trail treads are great. And....the east side of the road had no horse

evidence, less water, less mud and the same great trail tread conditions. It

was a great, sunny, fun day of riding.

So in closing, we rode at Victor Falls today, we ran into a large group of

horses, and saw a few other Mt Bikers in the area as well as many vehicles

in the tree farm lot, we talked with people that said they have ridden

Victor in the past few weeks, even though the area was "closed". So now, the

question in my mind is this - "Is Victor Falls Closed to Mt biking?" The

great big "NO TRESPASSING sign would lead me to believe that the area is

closed (I know it didn't stop me today!!) but it might in the future. Has

anyone heard any news about the Victor closures? Does anyone know how to

contact Cascadia for more information? I'm going to try to contact someone

at Cascadia this week and see if I can find out some additional info and

will keep the list posted.

By the way - Bob B was right, it was a great day for a ride!!

See you on the trails,

Eric C